What Should The Leafs Do After The Lockout Is Over?

[Newfie John]

Simple Question.

Here is what I think we should do. Strip the whole team down and trade for future assets. I say we should try and trade Mats Sundin, Bryan Mccabe, Ed Belfour, Owen Nolan(doubtful there'll be any takers though), Gary Roberts(depends on contract situation), Nieuwendyk(same as Roberts), Ken Klee, Tie Domi, and Darcy Tucker.

I think it's time for my fellow leaf fans to wake up and smell the coffee. We aren't going to win the cup with this roster, just isn't going to happen. I think we should completely strip down and trade our stars for future stars.

For Sundin(with cash in the deal) I think we could get a young roster player goals with good potential, Blue Chip prospect, and a first round draft pick. We may be able to get more, but thats what I'd ask for.

For Mccabe I think we could get a blue chip prospect, mid level winger prospect and a first rounder.

For Belfour we could get the same deal as the Sundin deal, just scaled down a little considering Belfour's age.

For Nolan we could get a good prospect maybe.

For Klee we could get a pick and a prospect.

Won't get much for Domi.

For Tucker we could get a first rounder and a later pick.

Newy and Roberts will probably be gone either to free agency(calgary?) or retirement.

Sign a bunch of cheap free agents to fill our roster, and be a horrible team(maybe as bad as the 80's?) for a few years. Leaf fans will still pack the ACC regardless so greedy MLSE will be rolling in the dough for a few years.

Now, our team would downright suck for the next few years. I'm willing to go through a few tough years in order to set up for some glory days. Just take a look up again and see all the picks and prospects we could have and add it on to the players we already have. Take note that we're keeping Tomas Kaberle since he's still pretty young, we still have Karel Pilar, Matt Stajan, Alex Ponikarovsky, and Nik Antropov(with all that playing time maybe his career could take off?). Not to mention we have a few youngsters ready to fill in like Alex Steen and Carlo Colaiocovo. Ian White and Kyle Wellwood aren't far off either.

I think this would be a very exciting time period and our team would be contending for the cup again in 4-5 years.

[Madferret]

John do you really think anybody is going to trade away their blue-chippers or 1st rounders for UFA's? There is only one team I can think of that's dumb enough to do that.

[Max Power]

Not only that but also a contender after 4 or 5 years
It took Ottawa and Tampa almost 8 years to be taken seriously
All your draft picks would need to be great picks

[Newfie John]

John do you really think anybody is going to trade away their blue-chippers or 1st rounders for UFA's? There is only one team I can think of that's dumb enough to do that.

For a star like Sundin that isn't out of range. Which of these are UFA's.

[Madferret]

For a star like Sundin that isn't out of range.

His $$$ contract might make it out of range.

[Madferret]

For Mccabe I think we could get a blue chip prospect, mid level winger prospect and a first rounder.
Are you kidding me?? If JFJ can find a team to hose all that out of for Bryan McCabe, then all the power to him.

For Belfour we could get the same deal as the Sundin deal, just scaled down a little considering Belfour's age.
Belfour will be a UFA..

For Nolan we could get a good prospect maybe.
For a guy who's damaged goods and about to be bought out, I doubt it.

For Klee we could get a pick and a prospect.
Why? A 3rd rounder maybe.

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

First for Tucker :eek:

Blue-chipper and a first for McCabe :confused:

Did Mike Milbury take over every team in the NHL?

Anyways, I think the Leafs should try to remain a contender when hockey resumes. With only two buyouts with won't be able to get rid of all our big contracts (Mats, Nolan, Eddie, McCabe), and a guy like Sundin will be untradeable because of his contract in a capped league anyways. So I say we buyout Nolan for sure, and Belfour Although if JFJ doesn't think the team could land a number one goalie then McCabe might be a better choice. He actually has trade value though, so if you can move him then Klee would be the guy I'd buyout. On the UFA market the team will have to replace Roberts, Niewy, Mogilny, and Nolan up front. With hundreds of UFAs available they should be able to do it :nod:

[scorpionn]

I don't think under the new CBA that many teams will be dealing their first round picks... usually a team would deal one at the deadline to add a player for the playoff run. Almost nobody could afford Sundin for his price tag (and he has a no trade clause). Belfour is almost 40, and with his price tag no team would likely trade for him. Nolan is most likely to be bought out... Tucker and Klee are no where worth the potential of a first round pick, maybe a half-decent prospect.

McCabe's value couldn't be any lower at the moment, though I would like to see him dealt.

But due to the salary cap, its worth betting that the top spenders will all be within thousands of the actual cap, so there will be no room to add. Also a capped system will encourage more teams to build from within with draft choices.

[Newfie John]

Are you kidding me?? If JFJ can find a team to hose all that out of for Bryan McCabe, then all the power to him.

2nd in goals for defencemen, he could garner close to that.


Belfour will be a UFA..

No he won't.

For a guy who's damaged goods and about to be bought out, I doubt it.

I agree.


Why? A 3rd rounder maybe.

:eek: Yeah right. He came into his own offensively last season and is a rock defensively.

[Madferret]

Yeah right. He came into his own offensively last season and is a rock defensively.

Again, if JFJ can get that much return for Klee then all the power to him. I think you're over-valuing your (TML's) end of these deals, that's all.

I thought Eddie was due to be a UFA again, but if he's signed then I guess I'm wrong..

:shrug:

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

Again, if JFJ can get that much return for Klee then all the power to him. I think you're over-valuing your (TML's) end of these deals, that's all.

I thought Eddie was due to be a UFA again, but if he's signed then I guess I'm wrong..

:shrug:

Eddie signed a 3 year deal before the lockout, but the team can buyout of the third year at 2 million dollars if they want.

[Max Power]

Eddie signed a 3 year deal before the lockout, but the team can buyout of the third year at 2 million dollars if they want.

Eddie was signed to a contract that extends to his 42nd birthday? A 3 year contract for a goalie of that age for that amount of money has to be a record. What a deal for Eddie

[The Insider]

The Leafs gotta be smart, if they get careless and ignore this opportunity to reload and rebuild at the same time, it'll set them back 4 or 5 years. It's tough to decide who they need now since the league is proposing these radical changes and defence might not be the most necessary item on the Leafs shopping list. John Ferguson needs to be active with the UFAs and try to get them at bargain prices since we have a lot of $$$ already locked up. Hopefully with the year off the older guys will have recovered from nagging injuries and have big years. It's still early so we'll have to see who's out there and evaluate the team from there, until then we wait...

[MadDevil]

For Sundin(with cash in the deal) I think we could get a young roster player goals with good potential, Blue Chip prospect, and a first round draft pick. We may be able to get more, but thats what I'd ask for.

Sundin is 34 years old, on the downslope of his career, and is making big money. I don't think there are many teams out there that would give up a good roster player, a blue chip prospect, and a first round pick for him. Maybe the roster player and a pick, but not all three.

For McCabe I think we could get a blue chip prospect, mid level winger prospect and a first rounder.

McCabe is 30 years old, is good offensively but suspect defensively. No way would I give up either a blue chipper or a first rounder for him. Maybe a decent player or prospect, but that's about it.

For Belfour we could get the same deal as the Sundin deal, just scaled down a little considering Belfour's age.

Belfour is 40 years old, definitely on the downslope of his career, and has had back issues in the past. No way would I give up much of anything for him, especially in the new NHL.

For Nolan we could get a good prospect maybe.

Nolan is 33, isn't nearly the player he once was, and has missed 85 games over the last two years (not counting the playoffs). Maybe you could get a decent prospect out of him, but I think that's pushing it, especially with his contract. He'd be a better option for a buyout.

For Klee we could get a pick and a prospect.

Klee is 34, and like many other Leafs is on the back end of his career. Maybe a third round pick, or a prospect, but not much more.

Won't get much for Domi.

Other than a headache you mean?

For Tucker we could get a first rounder and a later pick.

No offense, but that's one of the most delusional things I've heard, even from a Leafs fan.:D

I think this would be a very exciting time period and our team would be contending for the cup again in 4-5 years.

Really? Teams like the Devils and Sens, who have been considered by many contenders in the East for years now didn't build their team in 4-5 years. I think you'd be looking at more like 7-8 years before the Leafs would be considered contenders again, even if you could get all you wanted from those trades. Although, with the whole salary cap era, the league will probably operate differently than it did the last decade. Too many unknowns at this point to even give that serious thought.

[PDO]

I'll give you a late first rounder or an early second rounder in '05 (ie: after lottery) and Mike York for Sundin and his monstrous contract. You might be able to convince me throw in a Tesliuk or Paukovich.

[Newfie John]

Sundin is 34 years old, on the downslope of his career, and is making big money. I don't think there are many teams out there that would give up a good roster player, a blue chip prospect, and a first round pick for him. Maybe the roster player and a pick, but not all three.

Whenever you see a star up for trade this is usually the price you hear. It was the same for Owen Nolan. It was the same for Sergei Gonchar last year, and that was what was originally asked for for Brian Leetch. Sundin has been very consistant and his numbers stay roughly the same every year. He hasn't slowed down yet.



McCabe is 30 years old, is good offensively but suspect defensively. No way would I give up either a blue chipper or a first rounder for him. Maybe a decent player or prospect, but that's about it.

Why do you say he's suspect defensively? How many leaf games do you watch honestly? Everyone has been saying that since his last bad game in the playoffs. Before his offensive game emerged, that was Mccabe's strong point. But because he had one bad game he's suspect defensively? NHL GM's I'm sure can look past one bad game and see the great season he had last year. A decent player or a prospect? You're kidding me.


Belfour is 40 years old, definitely on the downslope of his career, and has had back issues in the past. No way would I give up much of anything for him, especially in the new NHL.

You wouldn't. Desperate teams at the trade deadline however.



Nolan is 33, isn't nearly the player he once was, and has missed 85 games over the last two years (not counting the playoffs). Maybe you could get a decent prospect out of him, but I think that's pushing it, especially with his contract. He'd be a better option for a buyout.

Buy out is the most likely thing with Nolan, I agree. I'm just speculating. I'm not saying anything is set in stone. I might as well say it here, this thread wasn't meant to argue about possible returns for leaf players, but thats what it has turned into.



Klee is 34, and like many other Leafs is on the back end of his career. Maybe a third round pick, or a prospect, but not much more.

Back end of his career? Funny, seeing that he had a career year last season.



Other than a headache you mean?

Funny stuff.


No offense, but that's one of the most delusional things I've heard, even from a Leafs fan.:D

Tucker is a 20 goal scorer and good defensively and one of the better pests in the league. His discipline has vastly improved also. We could get a first rounder. Once again take a look at trades for players like Tucker. The Edmonton Oilers almost took the trade of Tucker and a 3rd round pick for Janne Niinimaa remember. He's better now then he was then if you ask me.


Really? Teams like the Devils and Sens, who have been considered by many contenders in the East for years now didn't build their team in 4-5 years. I think you'd be looking at more like 7-8 years before the Leafs would be considered contenders again, even if you could get all you wanted from those trades.

Nah. 5 years or so sounds about right. Ottawa was an expansion team. Thats completely different and it would take longer for them. The leafs already have a few prospects who are willing to step right in and play and be effective. If these trades above happened the prospects we would have would definately be ready and the first rounders would be just coming into the NHL starting the contention. 4-5 years is the earliest it could happen but in the leafs case it definately is possible.

Although, with the whole salary cap era, the league will probably operate differently than it did the last decade. Too many unknowns at this point to even give that serious thought.

Agreed.

[Newfie John]

I'll give you a late first rounder or an early second rounder in '05 (ie: after lottery) and Mike York for Sundin and his monstrous contract. You might be able to convince me throw in a Tesliuk or Paukovich.

:laughing: Give me a break. I did mention above that cash was included. If the cap space was available, I could see it happening. If the leafs were in a rebuilding mode though and were thinking of offering up Sundin to the Oilers, I don't see any prospects, other then Rob Schremp who I'm not sold on, who would garner interest in a package deal for Sundin.

[Madferret]

Why do you say he's suspect defensively? How many leaf games do you watch honestly? Everyone has been saying that since his last bad game in the playoffs. Before his offensive game emerged, that was Mccabe's strong point. But because he had one bad game he's suspect defensively? NHL GM's I'm sure can look past one bad game and see the great season he had last year. A decent player or a prospect? You're kidding me.

Why wasn't he invited to the Team Canada camp this summer for Turin, or the WC 2004, or the IIHL WHC 2005 then?
If that's what you think McCabe is worth, imagine what the Sens could pull for Chris Phillips?

:conspire:

[Newfie John]

Why wasn't he invited to the Team Canada camp this summer for Turin, or the WC 2004, or the IIHL WHC 2005 then?
If that's what you think McCabe is worth, imagine what the Sens could pull for Chris Phillips?

:conspire:

Mccabe sucks in International play to put it bluntly. In the NHL though is quite another story.

[Madferret]

Mccabe sucks in International play to put it bluntly. In the NHL though is quite another story.

He's just over-rated period John. He wasn't a Norris canditate, he doesn't get even an invite to play for Canada, even with Quinn at Canada's helm as head coach, and he's not worth a bluechipper, a prospect, and a 1st rounder.

[Newfie John]

He's just over-rated period John. He wasn't a Norris canditate,

4th in voting though. As much as you may deny that, that counts for something. As in 4th best defencemen in the league last season.

He doesn't get even an invite to play for Canada, even with Quinn at Canada's helm as head coach,

International play and NHL play is very different. Mccabe doesn't excel in that game. I wouldn't let that enter my head earlier, but I don't think I'm gonna argue with Wayne Gretzky.

and he's not worth a bluechipper, a prospect, and a 1st rounder.

I think he is. 4th best defencemen in the league last year, a contending team would definately give that up. I'm not saying that Ottawa would because their defence is already strong but just for sh!ts and giggles I'll use Ottawa as an example.

Andrej Meszaros, Peter Regin(or someone like him) and a first round draft pick for Bryan Mccabe.

Let's pretend Ottawa needs defence and it is "The last thing needed for the cup run" as so many contending teams say this last piece in the trade gives them what they need for the cup. Ottawa doesn't have to give up one roster player. They have to give up Meszaros or say Emery(who's been inconsistant), a prospect that likely means squat to the organization and the first round pick. Now a team that is thinking the future is now(hypothetical in Ottawa's case) this is a small risk move. Meszaros MAY turn out to be a top 4 defencemen, but there's a chance he won't, the pick is likely to be near the bottom of the draft.

Doesn't seem that far out of reach to me.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by NewfieJohn
Why do you say he's suspect defensively? How many leaf games do you watch honestly? Everyone has been saying that since his last bad game in the playoffs. Before his offensive game emerged, that was Mccabe's strong point. But because he had one bad game he's suspect defensively? NHL GM's I'm sure can look past one bad game and see the great season he had last year. A decent player or a prospect? You're kidding me.

He wasn?t that great defensively in the Ottawa series either NJ. He?s got great offensive upside but little defensive. Maybe he just needs the proper coaching or defensive team strategy

[Madferret]

How 'bout this; if JFJ trades McCabe away and doesn't get the farm in return, would you consider the fact that he's over-rated? And if you could link me to where it was determined that McCabe was '4th best defenseman in the league', I'd appreciate it.

[Max Power]

4th in voting though. As much as you may deny that, that counts for something. As in 4th best defencemen in the league last season.
International play and NHL play is very different. Mccabe doesn't excel in that game. I wouldn't let that enter my head earlier, but I don't think I'm gonna argue with Wayne Gretzky.
I think he is. 4th best defencemen in the league last year, a contending team would definately give that up. I'm not saying that Ottawa would because their defence is already strong but just for sh!ts and giggles I'll use Ottawa as an example.
Andrej Meszaros, Peter Regin(or someone like him) and a first round draft pick for Bryan Mccabe.
Let's pretend Ottawa needs defence and it is "The last thing needed for the cup run" as so many contending teams say this last piece in the trade gives them what they need for the cup. Ottawa doesn't have to give up one roster player. They have to give up Meszaros or say Emery(who's been inconsistant), a prospect that likely means squat to the organization and the first round pick. Now a team that is thinking the future is now(hypothetical in Ottawa's case) this is a small risk move. Meszaros MAY turn out to be a top 4 defencemen, but there's a chance he won't, the pick is likely to be near the bottom of the draft.
Doesn't seem that far out of reach to me.

WTF have you been smoking =]

A promising young defensemen and a first round pick for Mccabe is a stretch alone, but not unrealistic.
The reason why Mccabe doesn?t get picked for international events is because he sucks on the big ice surface. The reason why he sucks on the big ice surface is because he isn?t strong defensively in the first place. It?s not rocket science
He is no way the 4th best defensemen by a long shot. He may be in the top four offensively but offence only plays a small role on what makes a complete and top defensemen

[Madferret]

Ok, firstly, let's look at his +/-
8th - BRYAN MCCABE TOR D 75 16 37 53 22
So really, if he finished 8th in the league in +/- with his 53 pts, which is 4th among defenseman last season, then right there you see how much is wrong defensively with Mr McCabe. If he has a bad offensive year then his +/- is cooked John.

[Newfie John]

Ok, firstly, let's look at his +/-

So really, if he finished 8th in the league in +/- with his 53 pts, which is 4th among defenseman last season, then right there you see how much is wrong defensively with Mr McCabe. If he has a bad offensive year then his +/- is cooked John.

+/- means absolute squat. Jyrki Lumme lead the league in that stat one year with the leafs.

A promising young defensemen and a first round pick for Mccabe is a stretch alone, but not unrealistic.
The reason why Mccabe doesn?t get picked for international events is because he sucks on the big ice surface. The reason why he sucks on the big ice surface is because he isn?t strong defensively in the first place. It?s not rocket science
He is no way the 4th best defensemen by a long shot. He may be in the top four offensively but offence only plays a small role on what makes a complete and top defensemen

Thats your opinion, you're entitled to it. I tend to disagree with it. Not going to bother to argue anymore because really there's no point. The theme of this thread has gone way offbase.


How 'bout this; if JFJ trades McCabe away and doesn't get the farm in return, would you consider the fact that he's over-rated? And if you could link me to where it was determined that McCabe was '4th best defenseman in the league', I'd appreciate it.

Here you go: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2004/07/20/549954.htmlMcCabe will be the most expensive proposition for the Leafs. McCabe made $3.5 million US last season and likely be looking for a raise of at least $1 million. He has some ammunition after finishing fourth in the Norris Trophy voting and being named to the NHL's second all-star team this past season.

[Madferret]

Here you go: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2004/07/20/549954.html

Because some Leaf scribe writes him as finishing 4th, doesn't mean it happened. Again, something with a little more substance or the actual voting results from an official NHL or NHLPA affiliated site would be required to sway me on that one. Not some homer who writes for the Toronto Sun. You might as well source us to TML.ca...

[Newfie John]

Because some Leaf scribe writes him as finishing 4th, doesn't mean it happened. Again, something with a little more substance or the actual voting results from an official NHL or NHLPA affiliated site would be required to sway me on that one. Not some homer who writes for the Toronto Sun. You might as well source us to TML.ca...

:rolleyes: You're classic.

:laughing:

EDIT- This is the only other stuff I could find.

http://www.mapleleafs.com/bio.ml?playerName=%20Bryan%20McCabe

2003-04 SEASON: Named to the NHL Second All-Star Team (first Leaf defenceman since Borje Salming in 1979-80 to be named to one of the NHL year-end All-Star teams)...Finished fourth in Norris Trophy voting...Ranked ninth in the NHL in average

Take this for what its worth.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/your_call.asp?messageId=488798&hubname=nhl

How about this?

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/tor77.html

McCabe, 29, played 75 games for Toronto last season collecting 16 goals, 37 assists and 86 penalty minutes. He finished fourth in voting for the Norris Trophy awarded to the league's best defenseman.

Might as well keep on going.

http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/fhl/playernewsarchive?statsId=1334

McCabe finished fourth in Norris Trophy voting for the league's best defenseman, and was named to the NHL second All-Star team

Are the New York Times leaf bias too?

http://sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=nytimes&page=nhl/news/ADN3407200.htm

McCabe, who finished fourth in voting for the Norris Trophy,

Will that do?

[Max Power]

We should ask Mel to split this into trash talk or just make a "Is Mr Mccabe the 4th best defensmen in the league" thread. No way he's 4th best in the league and I would bet even most leafers would agree with that

[Newfie John]

We should ask Mel to split this into trash talk or just make a "Is Mr Mccabe the 4th best defensmen in the league" thread. No way he's 4th best in the league and I would bet even most leafers would agree with that

As in careers? No he isn't. As in last season?

[Max Power]

Those articles are just stating facts NJ... None of the authors are suggesting he is a top 4 D man
If he was then
A) He would be playing for Canada
B) He would have been named to the 1st All Star team =]

[Newfie John]

[QUOTE]Those articles are just stating facts NJ... None of the authors are suggesting he is a top 4 D man

The fact that Mccabe finished 4th in Norris voting, which means 4th best defencemen in the NHL in that year.

If he was then
A) He would be playing for Canada

Not necessarily.

B) He would have been named to the 1st All Star team =]

:confused: Max i'll just say that it was a brian cramp because I'd expect you'd know more then that. On one line there is usually 2 defencemen. 5 players, 2 defencemen. Mccabe was the 4th best, so he would be on the second pairing, on the second all star team. Each of these "All star teams" consist of 5 players.

[Madferret]

Zdeno Chara, Ottawa / Scott Niedermayer, New Jersey / Adrian Aucoin, N.Y. Islanders / Bryan McCabe, Toronto / Mathieu Schneider, Detroit / Chris Pronger, St. Louis / Rob Blake, Colorado / Nicklas Lidstrom, Detroit / Sergei Gonchar, Boston / Wade Redden, Ottawa

Guess who the only defenseman out the Norris candidates from 2003-04 didn't play or represent his country in any of the last few major International tournaments? That counts for something John, even though you just try and pass it off.

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

NJ you put to much stock into the Norris voting. Don't the idiot writers vote for this thing? These aren't scouts who go around the league, watch each team play, and break down the way each player plays. For the most part they watch one team play, and the boatload of media in Southern Ontario will be bias towards their guy if he's having a career year. That bias/overexposure will likely sway a few more votes too because like I said, writers don't go around the entire league watching each defensemen play, and votes are given out on reputation or hype (kinda like the Gold Glove awards they hand out in baseball).

I'm not saying this to put down McCabe. I love the guy, and behind Tucker he's my favourite Leaf. However, he doesn't belong in a conversation talking about the best defensemen in the league because he's a 2nd or 3rd dman. Leetch in his late 30s was better than McCabe when we picked him up late last season.

[MadDevil]

Tucker is a 20 goal scorer and good defensively and one of the better pests in the league. His discipline has vastly improved also. We could get a first rounder. Once again take a look at trades for players like Tucker. The Edmonton Oilers almost took the trade of Tucker and a 3rd round pick for Janne Niinimaa remember. He's better now then he was then if you ask me.

Tucker has hit the 20 goal plateau a grand total of 3 times in 11 seasons, he's finished in the positive in +/- only 4 times in his career, and still takes stupid penalties at times. And a team is going to give up a first round pick for that?

:laughing: :laughing:

[PDO]

John, the Niinimaa for Tucker trade was never once mentioned in Edmonton. In fact, it was never even rumoured by our media that we were talking trade with Toronto.

Interesting how that works eh?

As for Sundin.. he hasn't played in a year, is well past his prime and has a huge contract. His value is FAR FAR FAR more to the Leafs than anyone else. The Oilers are in desperate need of a #1 C, but they wouldn't give up more than Brewer and picks for Sundin because he takes up 20% of your cap space, no matter how you cut it. Add in the age and there's no reason to give away young prospects for him.

[bluemeanie]

John, the Niinimaa for Tucker trade was never once mentioned in Edmonton. In fact, it was never even rumoured by our media that we were talking trade with Toronto.

Interesting how that works eh?

Actually, it was mentioned in Edmonton. It was, all over TSN and Canoe, and even in USA today... I remember clearly because I was talking in the Edmonton forum about it at the time because I considered it a steal on the Leafs part. But, I'm not really sure what the differance is anyhow, just because a rumour is mentioned in one city and not another, doesn't make it any less true.

[Newfie John]

John, the Niinimaa for Tucker trade was never once mentioned in Edmonton. In fact, it was never even rumoured by our media that we were talking trade with Toronto.


You must have been asleep, because that rumor was running rampid for a while.

As for Sundin.. he hasn't played in a year,

He's kept in shape during the lockout, like everyone else has.

is well past his prime and has a huge contract.

Contract? Yes. Well past his prime? Not really. He's still putting up 70 - 85 points consistantly.

His value is FAR FAR FAR more to the Leafs than anyone else.

Makes sense, but he would be a huge asset to any team. He would be the top line center on the vast majority of NHL teams also.

The Oilers are in desperate need of a #1 C, but they wouldn't give up more than Brewer and picks for Sundin because he takes up 20% of your cap space, no matter how you cut it.

Thats good, because I wouldn't want Brewer for Sundin anyway, that'd be the worst deal in history for the leafs. If the leafs ever traded Sundin the leafs would have no problem in eating some of the salary. Money isn't an issue. Cap space unfortunately is.

Add in the age

He's 34. He still has a good few years left in him.

and there's no reason to give away young prospects for him.

Except for he'd give you a marquee top center guy. VERY consistant player who will give you 70-85 points every single year and will pop in 30 goals for you consistantly. He's 34 so he'd still give you a good few years to be effective. He's hardly had any major injuries in his career. Though he did miss a whopping 4 games last year in the playoffs and played the entire regular season. Mike York as the centerpart in a package deal for Sundin is nothing short of rediculous and you know it. Eric Brewer? Pfft.

[TimmyTabasco]

Sundin to Los Angeles for Frolov :nod:

[MadDevil]

Mike York as the centerpart in a package deal for Sundin is nothing short of rediculous and you know it. Eric Brewer? Pfft.

So, the person wanting the Leafs to rebuild balks at a trade that would land them two relatively young, solid players, plus possibly some draft picks?:confused:

[TimmyTabasco]

So, the person wanting the Leafs to rebuild balks at a trade that would land them two relatively young, solid players, plus possibly some draft picks?:confused:

Johnny will settle for Nash, or Crosby..and nothing less :nod:

[Madferret]

So, the person wanting the Leafs to rebuild balks at a trade that would land them two relatively young, solid players, plus possibly some draft picks?:confused:

Well played Mad..

http://www.intellichess.com/images/mate.gif

[Newfie John]

So, the person wanting the Leafs to rebuild balks at a trade that would land them two relatively young, solid players, plus possibly some draft picks?:confused:

He didn't say both.. he said one or the other.

[The Insider]

Gentleman, let's all remember one thing before we jump all over our Newfoundland friend's idea:

Mike Millbury is stil GM in Long Island, and if the Sens can get Chara & Spezza for Alexei Yashin, then anything is possible :thumb:

[swflyers25]

He's kept in shape during the lockout, like everyone else has.

Brett Hull hasn't... ;)

For Klee we could get a pick and a prospect.

You'd be lucky to get a bucket of pucks for him. :D

For Nolan we could get a good prospect maybe.

Not likely for a guy that missed all of the most recent playoffs and ever since leaving San Jose has been horrible. Even John Leclair had better numbers in 03-04 and he is almost done.

For Mccabe I think we could get a blue chip prospect, mid level winger prospect and a first rounder.

Highly doubt it. Good on offense, horrible on defense.

4th in voting though. As much as you may deny that, that counts for something. As in 4th best defencemen in the league last season.

Norris finalists: Nieds, Chara and Pronger I believe. He's out of their league.

You must have been asleep, because that rumor was running rampid for a while.

Probably just ran rampant in Leafland, not in the rest of the league. Never heard of that deal being discussed.

[Max Power]

This is a more realistic outlook on what the leafs should do. No crazy talk about a first rounder and a blue chipper and an upcoming talent for Mccabe. =]

The funny thing is that the same people who voted Mccabe as 4th best in the league last year are now saying buy him out?


Maple Leafs must buy out big deals
By STEVE SIMMONS, Toronto Sun



It's time for the Leafs to get rid of goalie Ed Belfour ... and other old first-liners, says Steve Simmons. (File photo)
Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. paid more than $9 million to buy out the contract for a waste of time named Alonzo Mourning.

The question now is: Is MLSE willing to make an even larger commitment to the future of the Maple Leafs than they were in ridding themselves of Mourning?

And the answer to that question is both expensive and enticing.

Obviously, the Leafs are going to buy out the contract of forward Owen Nolan. But not so obvious, are the apparent futures of goalie Ed Belfour and veteran defencemen Bryan McCabe, Tomas Kaberle and Ken Klee, all of whom are contracted for one more Toronto season.

Yet, for a one-time buyout fee of some $15 million -- assuming they are willing to pay it -- the Leafs can begin fresh, starting over again with Mats Sundin, Darcy Tucker, Matt Stajan and basically nothing else.

They can accomplish this if they refuse to offer contracts to expendable free agents such as Aki Berg, Nik Antropov, Alexei Ponikarovsky, Wade Belak, Karel Pilar, Nathan Perrott, and Chad Kilger.

This is the extreme position the Leafs have left themselves in as the new hockey world is about to open for business. This is a team that dined out on its economic freedom and must now seek creative ways of remaining competitive: Conceivably, they can upgrade on almost every player they either buy out or let go with free agents.

And this is where the power of ownership enters the picture and the willingness to invest in the team comes into view. The more freedom John Ferguson is provided with by ownership, the more room he has to manipulate his roster, the more likely the Leafs will be competitive.

The current Leaf roster, make no mistakes, is troubling. This is a team that can miss the playoffs. This is a team without flexibility under the cap.

That leaves Ferguson with three basic options, and variations thereof, so long as MLSE is willing to pay buy-out dollars in places the general manager deems necessary:

- Option 1: Leaving the roster as is. This would be disastrous on his part. Aside from Sundin, there is not another quality scorer in the lineup. And with only $12.2 million to spend on 14 players, the Leafs would have almost no wiggle room to fix a team in need of fixing.

- Option 2: Buying out only Nolan helps the Leafs economically, but still leaves the GM in a position of having to sign 15 additional players with just $17 million to spend. That also leaves Ferguson with few palatable options.

- Option 3: Purge the roster. Buy out every player except Sundin, Tucker, Stajan and backup goalie Mikael Tellqvist. That would cost upwards of $15 million, but leave $29 million left for signing 19 players -- at an average salary of more than $1.5 per player.

This is where the Leafs need to find a way to turn what appears to be an economic disadvantage into their own advantage. When last this team was on the ice, the payroll was in excess of $60 million. The new Leaf payroll -- and Larry Tanenbaum said yesterday they will likely be a team that spends to the extent of the negotiated salary cap -- will be $39 million.

If you include the $15 million in one-time buyouts, the Leafs would be able to go with a completely open roster in a free-agent heavy market, spending $6 million less than they spent the last time they played.

The buyout option is a one-time offer but the option remains captivating nonetheless.

The Leafs don't need a reality show to determine they are in need of an extreme makeover. And with a potential flea market of some 400 NHL free agents -- depending on which players get bought out and which unsigned free agents are not presented with qualifying offers -- it is better for the Leafs and their questionable lineup to play buyer rather than watcher.

By buying out Nolan, Belfour, McCabe, Kaberle and Klee the Leafs would have the cash and the cachet to add eight quality players to a roster in need of quality.

A one-time opportunity they will never find again.

[bluemeanie]

I wouldn't be against it. I'd actually enjoy the prospect of it. But, I seriously doubt that that's a move they will make. Perhaps over the next two or three seasons the face will be completely changed, but not a complete roster dump. I think we can get one more descent season out of Belfour. Hmmm, Where's Cujo going to go? Klee still has value and I see no reason to unload him at his cost. I've given up on Kaberle a long time ago, and I've never held the same admiration for McCabe as many of my fellow Leafers... but, holding onto players like this, that may still garner some trade interest might be wise.

[Max Power]

I wouldn't be against it. I'd actually enjoy the prospect of it. But, I seriously doubt that that's a move they will make. Perhaps over the next two or three seasons the face will be completely changed, but not a complete roster dump. I think we can get one more descent season out of Belfour. Hmmm, Where's Cujo going to go? Klee still has value and I see no reason to unload him at his cost. I've given up on Kaberle a long time ago, and I've never held the same admiration for McCabe as many of my fellow Leafers... but, holding onto players like this, that may still garner some trade interest might be wise.

Yah to me it would be too drastic a move. Cujo is also getting old and with the potential free agent market I wouldn't even be surprised to see Sundin bought out (depending on the length of his contract). If the leafs buy out the right players and make the right moves they could easily be a top contender for the cup next season.

[Newfie John]

The funny thing is that the same people who voted Mccabe as 4th best in the league last year are now saying buy him out?

This is why I laugh at people who say the only reason Mccabe got 4th in voting is because of all the Toronto writers. That's complete bull. They're the biggest leaf haters of all, Cox and Simmons especially.

EDIT- I like Option #3. We'd end up spending like 60 million on one season and I wouldn't care, neither should the owners since thats what they usually pay anyway.

[Madferret]

EDIT- I like Option #3. We'd end up spending like 60 million on one season and I wouldn't care, neither should the owners since thats what they usually pay anyway.

That would equal 120 Million John. It's a $ for $ luxury tax after the 39 if I understand correctly.

[macca]

My vote:

Option 3: Purge the roster


Purge the Leaf roster? Why does that sound so appealing to me! 8)

[Amoroq]

That would equal 120 Million John. It's a $ for $ luxury tax after the 39 if I understand correctly.Option 3 is the buyout option. They buyout everyone except Sundin, Tucker, Telquist and Stajan and the buyout doesn't go agaisnt the cap. That frees up approximatly 29 million in Cap space. So 39 mil, plus the buyout equals less in what they would have paid in the old cba. I'd choose option 3 in a heartbeat, but it ain't my money :)

[Madferret]

If a player has just the 2005-06 season remaining on his contract, he can be bought out at two-thirds of his salary without it counting against the cap. If his contract extends beyond next season, a portion of the buyout in subsequent years will go against the cap. That will hamper the New York Rangers if they want to buy out Bobby Holik or Darius Kasparaitis.

How many years do the potential 'buy-out' players have left on their contracts?

[Newfie John]

How many years do the potential 'buy-out' players have left on their contracts?

No one has many.... I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who has a real longterm contract. Also, we really don't know the validity of that quote yet.

[MadDevil]

He didn't say both...he said one or the other.

Still, if you keep Sundin too long, his value isn't going to be what it is now. He's got probably 3 good seasons left, maybe 4 before he becomes a hit on the salary cap that isn't worth it. He has, by far, the best trade value of any Leafs player right now, so it wouldn't shock me if he was dealt, depending on which way the Leafs decide to go.

[KB in Kelowna]

, but it ain't my money :)

Actually as an Ontario tax payer, and with the Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan being major investors in MLSE, in a way it is your money. :laughing:

[Amoroq]

No one has many.... I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who has a real longterm contract. Also, we really don't know the validity of that quote yet.True true, when I first heard the news that there would be the buyout option, I also heard that a team could only buyout 2 players, so Steve Simmons and the plan could be hogwash. If a team can only buyout 2 players then the Leafs are truely screwed blued and tattooed :(