View Full Version : Vokoun tells Heatly he should be in jail
Vokoun apologizes for Heatley "mistake"
May 24, 2005
The 2005 World Championship gold medal was minutes away from being hung around the neck of Tomas Vokoun and all the Czech Republic goaltender had on his mind was tracking down Dany Heatley to apologize.
Vokoun wanted to say sorry to the Team Canada winger for a derogatory comment made in the heat of battle, in the final 12 seconds of the Czech Republic?s 3-0 win over Canada May 15.
Vokoun told Heatley ?that he should be in jail? moments after Vokoun alleges Heatley called him ?a f------ Czech" several times. Heatley, who was behind the wheel in a Sept. 29, 2003 car crash that killed Atlanta Thrashers teammate Dan Snyder, responded to Vokoun?s comment by spearing the goalie in the stomach.
After the final 12 seconds were played out, Vokoun realized his comment to Heatley crossed the line and was in bad taste. He told Czech reporter Pavel Barta he tried to speak with Heatley to make amends.
?I tried to apologize to him later, but he avoided me while players were shaking hands after the game,? Vokoun said. ?I tried again. That was all I could do. It depends on him if he takes my apology or not.?
Vokoun told Barta after the game he was embarrassed by his comment to Heatley.
?I deplore that I said something like (that) under emotions,? said Vokoun, the most valuable goalie at the Worlds and a six-year NHL veteran with Nashville. ?I made a mistake. I said what I should not say. I did something that I cannot be proud of.?
Vokoun?s agent Ritch Winter said he has been in contact with
Heatley?s agent, Stacey McAlpine.
?Stacey and I have talked about it. It?s not been an issue that we think is worth talking about (publicly),? Winter said. ?He?s admitted to making a comment that was improper and he wishes he didn?t make. These things stay on the ice and that?s where I think it should stay.?
McAlpine said he had heard a different version of events, but declined further comment.
In the wake of his car accident, Heatley was sentenced in February to three years probation and ordered to deliver 150 speeches about the dangers of speeding.
pretty harsh.
http://www.thn.com/en/headlines/detail.asp?id=27879&cat=954945254360
goaliemom7687
5-25-05, 2:43 PM
So humans behaving like humans.....I personally think Heatly's comment was more disrespectful than Vokouns.....Just my opinion...I thought Heatley should have done jail time too.... :talkhand: Just my opinion not asking anyone here to agree with me..... :thumb:
Vokoun told Heatley ?that he should be in jail? moments after Vokoun alleges Heatley called him ?a f------ Czech" several times.
If that's true than I hardly see an issue. According to this, Heatley just started throwing around racial slurs. Vokoun however spoke nothing but the truth. Heatley should be in jail. The man has literally gotten away with murder.
leaferfan87
5-25-05, 3:34 PM
It's clear that these comments were made in the heat of the moment and Vokun at least realized that his comments were a mistake and sought to apologize. If Heatley does not want to accept his apology, that is his choice.
Just to clarify, I thought both comments were pretty harsh. Racial or ethnic slurs are uncalled for.
Personally I don't think Heatly committed murder. But perhaps he avoided some jail time due to his fame.
The two guys should just shake hands and get over it like men.
Heatly really needs to fix his teeth :D
Am I the only person that doesn't think F'ing Czech isn't a slur? He is a Czech. It's not like he called him... whatever you'd call a Czech.
If I was called an F'Ing Canadian I wouldn't call it a racial slur by any means. If I saw someone called an F'ing NBomb.. then it's another thing.
Maybe I'm out to lunch?
I can't agree with you PDO calling someone a f**ing any nationality is making a harsh generalisation. It is like calling someone a F'ing honkey. Whether it was murder or not Heatley did get off lightly.
What really bothers me is the larger issue of players trying to wind eachother up instead of concentrating on the task at hand i.e. playing hockey.
I can't agree with you PDO calling someone a f**ing any nationality is making a harsh generalisation. It is like calling someone a F'ing honkey. Whether it was murder or not Heatley did get off lightly.
What really bothers me is the larger issue of players trying to wind eachother up instead of concentrating on the task at hand i.e. playing hockey.
He is a Czech.
I just don't see how it's a racist comment because he put the "f-ing" in front of it.
As far as winding players up.. has been a part of any competitive sport for decades, always will be. The game is always going to include mental toughness, and that's one aspect of it. I'm assuming you never played competitive sports?
One of the best sequences of hockey I ever had came last season. Hard work behind the net, worked the puck out infront, pulled a nice little deke on the defenseman, and shelfed it on the goalie, put my arms up and gave the defenseman I'd just made look like a goof a big smile and said "thanks".. he punches me in the face and gets another 2 minutes (where I scored again ;)) in the box. Definetly an important part of the game.. you have to keep your composure.
goaliemom7687
5-26-05, 6:06 PM
Heatly really needs to fix his teeth :D
Is that the best you've got? :D
Is that the best you've got? :D
Sadly yes, there was a time I had so much more to offer but those days are gone :cry:
goaliemom7687
5-27-05, 10:31 AM
Sadly yes, there was a time I had so much more to offer but those days are gone :cry:
Poor Dave not a mean vicious bone in your body!!!! What the hell are you doing posting here with the rest of us low-lifes? :coffee:
He is a Czech.
I just don't see how it's a racist comment because he put the "f-ing" in front of it.
As far as winding players up.. has been a part of any competitive sport for decades, always will be. The game is always going to include mental toughness, and that's one aspect of it. I'm assuming you never played competitive sports?
He was saying you f*king Czech as an insult so yes it is racism.
You are wrong about the competitve sport thing. I did compete competatively but felt no compulsion to wind upother competitors nor did they wind me up. We were too busy concentrating on the task at hand. Hurling insults at the opposition is childish.
slapshot™
5-27-05, 2:25 PM
He was saying you f*king Czech as an insult so yes it is racism.
Therefore (according to your logic), all insults = racism? No. Racism is defined as a racial slur. As far as I know Czech is a nationality, not a race. Insult, yes - racist - no.
If players can't handle an insult or two that is thrown their way in the heat of the battle perhaps they should think of a different line of work.
You are wrong about the competitve sport thing. I did compete competatively but felt no compulsion to wind upother competitors nor did they wind me up. We were too busy concentrating on the task at hand. Hurling insults at the opposition is childish.
http://library.vicu.utoronto.ca/exhibitions/ephemera/Box_2/tiddley_winks.jpg
Oh, look! The home version!
goaliemom7687
5-27-05, 2:28 PM
Therefore (according to your logic), all insults = racism? No. Racism is defined as a racial slur. As far as I know Czech is a nationality, not a race. Insult, yes - racist - no.
If players can't handle an insult or two that is thrown their way in the heat of the battle perhaps they should think of a different line of work.
http://library.vicu.utoronto.ca/exhibitions/ephemera/Box_2/tiddley_winks.jpg
Oh, look! The home version!
Hey your tiddley wink is too big!!!!! :laughing: :laughing:
It's very common for emotions to get the best of us on the ice...both players were very out of line, no doubt.
There is no excuse for insulting other players or getting out of line when playing a sport. It's a game for heavens sake not a life and death situation.
Players chirp and trash talk in all sports pretty much. But touching on what is probably the most tragic and painful moment in Heatly's life is really crossing the line. I think Voukoun realized that and that's why he tried to apologize.
Heatly on the other hand should act like a man and accept the apology when extended, rather than pouting like a kid... he did start it after all, according to the story.
Heatly on the other hand should act like a man and accept the apology when extended, rather than pouting like a kid... he did start it after all, according to the story.
Hate to bring this up..
But how about we replace one name with Moore and another with Bertuzzi?
Which one would be which? I don't see the connection between the two incicdents. Couldyou please clarify what you mean for me?
Which one would be which? I don't see the connection between the two incicdents. Couldyou please clarify what you mean for me?
Bertuzzi = Voukon, Moore = Heatley
"Moore on the other hand should act like a man and accept the apology when extended, rather than pouting like a kid... he did start it after all, according to the story."
Heatley started thigns, Voukon over-reacted and finished things. I love Heater, don't get me wrong.. and coincidently hate Voukon, but that is what happened.
There is no way in which the two are connected. Try as much as you want but Moore/Bertuzzi was NOT acceptable in the least and shouldn'r be "explained" away with silly excuses.
There is no way in which the two are connected. Try as much as you want but Moore/Bertuzzi was NOT acceptable in the least and shouldn'r be "explained" away with silly excuses.
Obviously it's a much smaller scale, but do you honestly not see the connection?
Player A does something.
Player B over-reacts.
Player A gets hurt.
Player B apologizes
Player A refuses to accept apology.
Darsehole Tucker
5-29-05, 8:06 PM
Just found this thread, I'm a little late.
I don't think it's a racial slur as Slappy pointed out. Definitely an insult though.
I don't really see the comparison to Moore and Bertuzzi though. Unless you mean that both Bertuzzi and Heatley should be in jail, in which case, you're absolutely right.
Just found this thread, I'm a little late.
I don't think it's a racial slur as Slappy pointed out. Definitely an insult though.
I don't really see the comparison to Moore and Bertuzzi though. Unless you mean that both Bertuzzi and Heatley should be in jail, in which case, you're absolutely right.
I actually think neither should be in jail, and I know I'm in the vast majority as far as that is concerned. I really don't understand why anyone thinks Heater should be in jail. He made a horrible mistake, was publically forgiven by the people he hurt, and hates what he's done. I think it'd be a waste of tax dollars to send someone like that to jail.
What's next, if two buddies get in a drinking contest, and one dies from alchohal poisoning, the other is charged with murder?
OK I've read your reasoning and must say I don't think there is much of a connection between the two.
Comparing Moore to Heatley just doesn't seem to work. Moore has probably lost a career, possibly millions of dollars and has endured and continues to endure pain and suffering. There are many who would contest that Moore started things.
Heatley lost a little dignity over a shouting match.
Not anywhere close by any stretch of the imagination imho. :wave:
Darsehole Tucker
5-29-05, 9:42 PM
What's next, if two buddies get in a drinking contest, and one dies from alchohal poisoning, the other is charged with murder?
Is one of them funneling alcohol directly into the other's mouth?
In all honesty, I don't think Heatley should get jail-time either, it was a mistake.
But the comparison is weak, for the reasons that Dave outlined.
I never said it was a strong comparison, I'm very willing to admit that it's a stretch, and what happened definetly happened on different levels. I'm simply saying that the same basic idea is there, with Player A and B.
I never said it was a strong comparison, I'm very willing to admit that it's a stretch, and what happened definetly happened on different levels. I'm simply saying that the same basic idea is there, with Player A and B.
okly dokly :)
Obviously it's a much smaller scale, but do you honestly not see the connection?
Player A does something.
Player B over-reacts.
Player A gets hurt.
Player B apologizes
Player A refuses to accept apology.
I see your comparison. But the key there is "much smaller scale".
so much smaller that, like Dave, I think the comparison becomes invalid. The Bert/Moore situation is kind of extreme in compared to two guys verbally insulting each other. It is an unrealistic stretch.
Even if Moore did accept an apology from Bert, he cannot just shake hands and shrug it off like nothing happened.
As for the racial slur distinction, it was not a racial slur it was an ethnic slur. Neither is better or worse than the other if you ask me.
I didn't expect this thread to get so much opinion. I think we're dwelling on it more than they are :laughing:
In all honesty, I don't think Heatley should get jail-time either, it was a mistake.
Speeding and dangerous driving are not a mistake they are offenses and are done on purpose.
Speeding and dangerous driving are not a mistake they are offenses and are done on purpose.
Heatley probably started out as a bike-driving, cat-frightening terror who told strange women to, uh, stank off. :] Too bad really.... when a sequence of old fashioned childhood spankings may have prevented this all.
Heatley probably started out as a bike-driving, cat-frightening terror who told strange women to, uh, stank off. :] Too bad really.... when a sequence of old fashioned childhood spankings may have prevented this all.
:roll: :rollover2
Grim, you've out done yourself.
A4L - I personally know 7 people who have hit over 180 KM/H in their cars. I hate hate hate hate HATE to stereotype, but young drivers drive fast. We're not the only ones who do it, but the adrenaline rush is there, always has been and always will be. I think people become more cautious, but really... how many people wouldn't speed in a Ferrari?
Iced Tea
5-30-05, 10:24 PM
I actually think neither should be in jail, and I know I'm in the vast majority as far as that is concerned. I really don't understand why anyone thinks Heater should be in jail. He made a horrible mistake, was publically forgiven by the people he hurt, and hates what he's done. I think it'd be a waste of tax dollars to send someone like that to jail.
What's next, if two buddies get in a drinking contest, and one dies from alchohal poisoning, the other is charged with murder?
I'm sorry but what you said is a big load of crap.
Oops, I just shot someone and they're dead, sorry everyone. I'll just be going back to work now. If you don't think what I said is similar, think of the gun as a weapon just like Heatley's car. Careless disregard with a weapon caused Snyder's death and Heatley should be rotting in jail.
He made a horrible mistake, was publically forgiven by the people he hurt
Kind of hard for Heatley to be forgiven by the one he hurt most because Dan Snyder is dead.
As for a drinking contest, if the one guy had a loaded gun to the other guy's head and was forcing him to drink to death, the survivor should be charged with murder.
I'm sorry but what you said is a big load of crap.
Oops, I just shot someone and they're dead, sorry everyone. I'll just be going back to work now. If you don't think what I said is similar, think of the gun as a weapon just like Heatley's car. Careless disregard with a weapon caused Snyder's death and Heatley should be rotting in jail.
Kind of hard for Heatley to be forgiven by the one he hurt most because Dan Snyder is dead.
As for a drinking contest, if the one guy had a loaded gun to the other guy's head and was forcing him to drink to death, the survivor should be charged with murder.
I couldn't agree more Tea. If you don't know the limitations of the car and MOST importantly YOUR SKILLS then don't try it out when you have passengers.
If I killed someone when I was driving I would quit driving, and quit my job to go on a speaking tour to let all young people know how STUPID I was and warn others about this silliness.
BTW one sister in law was killed by a speeding driver.
SPEED KILLS
Madferret
6-01-05, 7:00 PM
What if Heatley died and Snyder lived?
You guys are forgetting one important thing....Dan Snyder got into Heatleys car ON HIS OWN FREE WILL.
What if Heatley died and Snyder lived?
You guys are forgetting one important thing....Dan Snyder got into Heatleys car ON HIS OWN FREE WILL.
And I guarentee Snyder was egging him on to go faster.
These two guys were best friends, Snyder knew damn well he was going to be speeding. I'm sorry, but Snyder is responsible for his death just as much as Heater is.
A4L and Tea, you need to remember what it's like to be a teenager (or just over) again. Testorome and ferrari's are never a good combination, but I guarentee before Heatley lost control Snyder was having the time of his life.
Madferret
6-01-05, 7:17 PM
Watching Canuck fans pass judgement is funny...
A4L and Tea, you need to remember what it's like to be a teenager (or just over) again. Testorome and ferrari's are never a good combination, but I guarentee before Heatley lost control Snyder was having the time of his life.
The only testosterone is this body has been introduced chermically. I know what it is like to be a teenager but one has to accept responsiblilities for their actions.
The only testosterone is this body has been introduced chermically. I know what it is like to be a teenager but one has to accept responsiblilities for their actions.
So you're implying that him waking up every day knowing he killed his best friend isn't accepting responsibility for it?
Please, someone give me a good reason for him to go to jail. Anyone. Open challenge as to why we should spend tax money to put a man who accidently killed his best friend in jail.
"Because he killed him" isn't an answer, nor is "He has to take responsiblity" .. last I checked he's done that, and everyone close to the situation agree's that he has.
Newfie John
6-01-05, 7:59 PM
So you're implying that him waking up every day knowing he killed his best friend isn't accepting responsibility for it?
Please, someone give me a good reason for him to go to jail. Anyone. Open challenge as to why we should spend tax money to put a man who accidently killed his best friend in jail.
"Because he killed him" isn't an answer, nor is "He has to take responsiblity" .. last I checked he's done that, and everyone close to the situation agree's that he has.
I also agree, but as far as Vokoun goes, if there's a way to get Heatley off his game, that's probably it. I have to admit, I did giggle a little bit when I first read this whole situation.
So you're implying that him waking up every day knowing he killed his best friend isn't accepting responsibility for it?
Please, someone give me a good reason for him to go to jail. Anyone. Open challenge as to why we should spend tax money to put a man who accidently killed his best friend in jail.
"Because he killed him" isn't an answer, nor is "He has to take responsiblity" .. last I checked he's done that, and everyone close to the situation agree's that he has.
Hang on there bud. What if the two people in this scenerio were two unknowns? One guy with a power vehicle drives like an idiot and kills his friend. Is he guilty of vehicular manslaaughter? You bet your ass he is.
Hang on there bud. What if the two people in this scenerio were two unknowns? One guy with a power vehicle drives like an idiot and kills his friend. Is he guilty of vehicular manslaaughter? You bet your ass he is.
Ah, so it what I thought it was.
Thank you for admitting you're jealous of Heatley. I also don't think it necessarily is. If Snyders parents wouldn't of come out and said waht they did, it may have happened. I still stand by the notion that Snyder knew damn well they were going to go that fast and wanted it to happen though.
Next please?
Madferret
6-01-05, 8:11 PM
There's a whole slew of Yoda-isms that have been just waiting for a thread like this...
Iced Tea
6-01-05, 10:12 PM
Watching Canuck fans pass judgement is funny...
I don't think we want to go there considering I think Bertuzzi should have received jail time.
What if Heatley died and Snyder lived?
You guys are forgetting one important thing....Dan Snyder got into Heatleys car ON HIS OWN FREE WILL.
Hard for Snyder to exert free will while the car was moving considering he was sitting in the passenger seat.
Have you ever been in a car when the driver does something stupid. You're yelling for him/her to stop but do they? No, yet after it's over, they're sorry but we know it's a load of crap. I stopped going anywhere with certain friends because of their driving. I also told them to smarten up and slow down before they kill someone.
Iced Tea
6-01-05, 10:22 PM
And I guarentee Snyder was egging him on to go faster.
These two guys were best friends, Snyder knew damn well he was going to be speeding. I'm sorry, but Snyder is responsible for his death just as much as Heater is.
A4L and Tea, you need to remember what it's like to be a teenager (or just over) again. Testorone and ferrari's are never a good combination, but I guarentee before Heatley lost control Snyder was having the time of his life.
PDO, unless you were in the car, you can't guarentee anything.
What does being a teenager have to do with anything? I know many sane teenager drivers and many crazy older drivers. Age has nothing to do with stupidity.
How is Snyder responsible for his own death? Was his foot on the gas pedal as well?
So speeding and driving like idiots is the definition of "the time of his life" now. So it's ok to risk the lives of others just to have "fun"? Maybe taking the car out to a race track where Heatley would hurt no one else would have been the smarter thing to do.
Madferret
6-01-05, 10:24 PM
Have you ever been in a car when the driver does something stupid. You're yelling for him/her to stop but do they? No, yet after it's over, they're sorry but we know it's a load of crap. I stopped going anywhere with certain friends because of their driving. I also told them to smarten up and slow down before they kill someone.
But you don't know that's what really transpired. That's what I'm trying to say here. The FACT here is that two male adults made the same stupid mistake and 1 lost his life over it.
The 1 that lived has to live with that for the rest of his life.
Iced Tea
6-01-05, 10:39 PM
But you don't know that's what really transpired. That's what I'm trying to say here. The FACT here is that two male adults made the same stupid mistake and 1 lost his life over it.
The 1 that lived has to live with that for the rest of his life.
One does have to live with it for the rest of his life but shouldn't he also be in jail? Snyder could have been screaming for Heatley to go faster but if Heatley had any brains, he would have said no. The driver is in control of the car and is responsible for all that occurs. No one but Heatley knows what happened so he could make up whatever garbage he wanted, he could even blame Snyder for distracting him or something. Killing someone should mean jail time no matter how sorry the killer is.
If Heatley was a no name schmo, he'd be doing 15 to life in a Georgia jail.
Thank you for admitting you're jealous of Heatley
I NEVER want to be that jealous. I know how to drive fast cars BUT I also know my limitations. The problem is that he didn't know his. WQhen you are the driveer of a vehichle you are RESPONSIBLE for the well-being of your passengers. If you kill one with your "driving" skills then you responsible for their death.
An "ordinary" citizen wou;d not have gotten away with that, SO DON'T CALL ME JEALOUS.
Iced Tea
6-01-05, 10:51 PM
Thank you for admitting you're jealous of Heatley.
Why would anyone be jealous of Heatley?
Yes, I want to be a moron who drives too fast and kills my best friend. Then to be surrounded by people too stupid to realize that it was my fault for my best friend's death. Then to snow my best friend's parents with some sob story. And finally to have fans to blind from my celebrity that they would forgive anything I did. That's the life.
OJ never had it this good.
OJ never had it this good.
First off, that's a ridiculous comment and you know it.
Secondly, A4L, you proved that you were jealous of the fact that Heatley was able to "get away with it" because of his status. Sorry, that's jealous and nothing else, regardless of what you try to cover it up with.
Thirdly, Craig, do you really believe that Snyder holds no responsibility for his own actions? Why can't anyone accept that these days? There are far too many laws built to protect the idiot.
I can show case studies from my own experiences of friends driving fast. I can also point to testorome levels that are rampant in young males and make something like driving fast extremely appealing. Quite frankly, I see a lot of evidence that supports two things:
1) Heatley drove too fast
2) Snyder knew Heatley would drive fast, enjoyed it, and entered that vehicle at his own risk.
Sorry, Heatley didn't hit some kid or run over a cat. He drove too fast, and Synder paid the price for it. Had Snyder not be in the vehicle this would've been different. Fact is, young men drive fast cars fast and love it.
Oh, I see it now! Heatley should go to jail because it's not fair when someone famous doesn't get crucified. Silly me. :doh:
First off, that's a ridiculous comment and you know it.
Secondly, A4L, you proved that you were jealous of the fact that Heatley was able to "get away with it" because of his status. Sorry, that's jealous and nothing else, regardless of what you try to cover it up with.[QUOTE]
There is NO jealousy. It is contempt for the system that allowed him to get away with murder.[i]
[QUOTE=PDO]Thirdly, Craig, do you really believe that Snyder holds no responsibility for his own actions? Why can't anyone accept that these days? There are far too many laws built to protect the idiot.
I can show case studies from my own experiences of friends driving fast. I can also point to testorome levels that are rampant in young males and make something like driving fast extremely appealing. Quite frankly, I see a lot of evidence that supports two things:
1) Heatley drove too fast
2) Snyder knew Heatley would drive fast, enjoyed it, and entered that vehicle [i]at his own risk.
Sorry, Heatley didn't hit some kid or run over a cat. He drove too fast, and Synder paid the price for it. Had Snyder not be in the vehicle this would've been different. Fact is, young men drive fast cars fast and love it.
Oh, I see it now! Heatley should go to jail because it's not fair when someone famous doesn't get crucified. Silly me. :doh:
How on earth can you say that Snyder is responsible for his own death? He was not in control of the gas peddle and steering wheel. I hope you are not insinuating that traffic laws are there to protect idiots.
I agree Heatly didn't run over a kid or a cat, he killed his best friend with his stupidity. Why shouldn't he pay the price for his crime?
How on earth can you say that Snyder is responsible for his own death? He was not in control of the gas peddle and steering wheel. I hope you are not insinuating that traffic laws are there to protect idiots.
I agree Heatly didn't run over a kid or a cat, he killed his best friend with his stupidity. Why shouldn't he pay the price for his crime?
Because he went into that car knowing Heatley would speed. It is 100% just as much Snyders fault as it is his. You can try to paint a picture that Heatley should be in jail because what he did was wrong and all taht fun stuff.. but the fact remains that Snyder very willingly got into that vehicle.
If I get into a vehcile with a drunk; I'm just as stupid and at fault as the drunk for driving.
If I get into a vehicle with someone I know will speed, I'm just as stupid and at fault as the driver.
If Snyder gets into a vehicle with his best friend and knows he will speed, he's just as stupid and at fault.
I don't like dragging a name through the mud, but he was in that vehicle of his own free will, I don't see how you can deny that and whine about Heatley driving past his limits. That's happened for decades, and always will. Heatley got lucky and learned an extremely valuable lesson at the cost of his best friend. That is MORE than payment enough. Add in that he's worth much more to America out of jail than he is in jail, and I don't see why put him there? He's no danger to anyone now. Take away his right to drive for all that I care.
Madferret
6-02-05, 3:45 PM
I agree Heatly didn't run over a kid or a cat, he killed his best friend with his stupidity. Why shouldn't he pay the price for his crime?
Because his stupid best friend got in the car with him on his own free will, that's why.
Newfie John
6-02-05, 3:54 PM
Because his stupid best friend got in the car with him on his own free will, that's why.
*delete*
Madferret
6-02-05, 4:00 PM
*delete*
Why? That's the reality of it that no one wants to deal with.
I think PDO does have a point. Some court somewhere might decide that Snyder is partially responsible because he should have known that his friend would likely speed and thus voluntarily put himself at some risk. This may have implications for insurance settlements and potential lawsuits by the Snyder family, of which there aren't likely to be any.
To determine the level of responsibility a court would have to determine what Snyder knew of Heatly's driving habits, whether Heatly was likely to drive dangerously on that day and whether Snyder was involved by urging his friend to "go for it". Perhaps Heatly said "hop in pal I'll drive very carefully" and Snyder really believed him.
All very speculative and pretty difficult to prove since a court would have to know what was in the mind of a person now long dead.
Daryl Shilling
6-02-05, 10:54 PM
Let's work under the assumption that Snyder knew Heatley was going to speed. In fact, we can even work under the assumption that Snyder knew that Heatley was going to speed to an extent that a crash and his own death were very likely.
What does that have to do with anything? In the United States, people go to jail for assisting people (people that really want to die) in suicides. Jack Kevorkian has been in jail for several years for being convicted of such crimes.
It's still illegal to drive the way Heatley did, killing a human being. Even if Snyder knew he could/would be killed, it's a dead point with the law; even if Snyder *wanted* Heatley to kill him, it's not any sort of legal leg to stand on. You're not legally entitled to kill people, other than in self defense, even if the victim makes a poor decision.
If we were talking about Dany Heatley the plumber, not too many people would be defending him. This is completely subjective, but I can't ever recall seeing very many people ever feel sorry for any John Q Publics that speed through cross-walks, run red lights, etc, and kill people. "He has to live with his conscience" never exactly enters the moral debate then.
Daryl
If we were talking about Dany Heatley the plumber, not too many people would be defending him. This is completely subjective, but I can't ever recall seeing very many people ever feel sorry for any John Q Publics that speed through cross-walks, run red lights, etc, and kill people. "He has to live with his conscience" never exactly enters the moral debate then.
It's not killing people that makes this important.. it's killing hte person in your own car.
I still say, the only reason I've stood behind Heatley is because he (was lucky enough..) never ran into anyone, and only hurt himself and his willing passenger. To me that's what makes it all moot, and always will.. I'd have the same opinion no matter if this was Heatley or not.
So you are saying that negligent drivers should get away with killing passengers in their own vehicles?
Remind me to NEVER get in a car with you. :conspire:
Let's work under the assumption that Snyder knew Heatley was going to speed. In fact, we can even work under the assumption that Snyder knew that Heatley was going to speed to an extent that a crash and his own death were very likely.
What does that have to do with anything?
Daryl
There are two standards that could be applied here. Civil and criminal. That is why Snyder knowing Heatly was likely to drive badly could have repercussions. In a criminal case I seriously doubt there is much risk to Snyder, or anyone in that predicament.
On a civil basis though Snyder could be held partially responsible if only because requirments are lower in a civil case when it come to assigning libility. For instance when OJ Simpson was acquitted of a murder charge his former wife's family still successfully sued Simpson for millions because even though Simpson was proven "innocent" on a criminal basis the civil court still found him "responsible" for his wife's death. Not very fair really but that's the way the system works.
Daryl Shilling
6-03-05, 5:02 AM
There are two standards that could be applied here. Civil and criminal. That is why Snyder knowing Heatly was likely to drive badly could have repercussions. In a criminal case I seriously doubt there is much risk to Snyder, or anyone in that predicament.
On a civil basis though Snyder could be held partially responsible if only because requirments are lower in a civil case when it come to assigning libility. For instance when OJ Simpson was acquitted of a murder charge his former wife's family still successfully sued Simpson for millions because even though Simpson was proven "innocent" on a criminal basis the civil court still found him "responsible" for his wife's death. Not very fair really but that's the way the system works.
I get your meaning, Dave, though I was limiting the idea to the criminal side of things, just because Vokoun told Heatley he should be in jail.
Daryl
Daryl Shilling
6-03-05, 5:15 AM
It's not killing people that makes this important.. it's killing hte person in your own car.
I still say, the only reason I've stood behind Heatley is because he (was lucky enough..) never ran into anyone, and only hurt himself and his willing passenger. To me that's what makes it all moot, and always will.. I'd have the same opinion no matter if this was Heatley or not.
Willing to do what, though? To say that we know for sure what Snyder was willing to do, past be willing to get into Heatley's car is guesswork. Maybe he was willing to be in the car knowing that Heatley would speed. Again, maybe Dan Snyder was willing to get in the car knowing that Heatley would drive so recklessly that his very life was in danger. Maybe. We don't know, and I fail to see the point of it, actually, since Snyder's willingness to do any of these things doesn't entitle Heatley to drive his car carelessly enough to endanger the public and kill his passenger.
Daryl
Heatley was driving badly and irresponsibly and killed his passenger. I see bad and irresponsible drivers every day. How about some guy who pulls out to pass on the highway on a double line... just misses an oncoming car and loses control.. hitting a tree, and killing a passenger in his car. Bad driving skills, bad decision. Should he go to jail?
Madferret
6-03-05, 11:48 AM
Heatley was driving badly and irresponsibly and killed his passenger. I see bad and irresponsible drivers every day. How about some guy who pulls out to pass on the highway on a double line... just misses an oncoming car and loses control.. hitting a tree, and killing a passenger in his car. Bad driving skills, bad decision. Should he go to jail?
God willing, make him pay.
:wicked:
Heatley was driving badly and irresponsibly and killed his passenger. I see bad and irresponsible drivers every day. How about some guy who pulls out to pass on the highway on a double line... just misses an oncoming car and loses control.. hitting a tree, and killing a passenger in his car. Bad driving skills, bad decision. Should he go to jail?
From a criminal point of view I would think there is a big difference between bad judgement on the spur of the moment leading to an accident as opposed to killing a passenger because you were driving a hot car at a 150 mph in a residential zone, or whatever it was that Heatly was doing.
From a criminal point of view I would think there is a big difference between bad judgement on the spur of the moment leading to an accident as opposed to killing a passenger because you were driving a hot car at a 150 mph in a residential zone, or whatever it was that Heatly was doing.
So you can be an idiot, but only sometimes.
Willing to do what, though? To say that we know for sure what Snyder was willing to do, past be willing to get into Heatley's car is guesswork. Maybe he was willing to be in the car knowing that Heatley would speed. Again, maybe Dan Snyder was willing to get in the car knowing that Heatley would drive so recklessly that his very life was in danger. Maybe. We don't know, and I fail to see the point of it, actually, since Snyder's willingness to do any of these things doesn't entitle Heatley to drive his car carelessly enough to endanger the public and kill his passenger.
Daryl
I'll admit it is a hypothesis of mine, but I would quite frankly be astonished if Snyder wasn't on a huge adrenaline rush just like Heatley was. If I remember correctly, Heatley has had some driving mishaps in the past.. I just find it impossible to believe this was the first time the two had sped together.
A4L: In this case.. Snyders stupidity equals rivals Heatleys negligence.
Snyder made a decision to get into a car with someone who we can safely assume he knew would speed. Anything that happens to him after that is his responsibility.
From a criminal point of view I would think there is a big difference between bad judgement on the spur of the moment leading to an accident as opposed to killing a passenger because you were driving a hot car at a 150 mph in a residential zone, or whatever it was that Heatly was doing.
Okay let's say I'm driving on a highway I'm familiar with. I know there is a spot where the signs indicate that I must slow down from 100 km/h to 60km/h to negotiate a turn but I never do (intentionally not obeying the law) and I have never had any trouble. My passenger has seen me do this many times. One day it is raining and I lose control going through this curve... hit a tree, and kill my passenger. So I have knowingly failed to obey the law and have killed my passenger. Should I go to jail?
Okay let's say I'm driving on a highway I'm familiar with. I know there is a spot where the signs indicate that I must slow down from 100 km/h to 60km/h to negotiate a turn but I never do (intentionally not obeying the law) and I have never had any trouble. My passenger has seen me do this many times. One day it is raining and I lose control going through this curve... hit a tree, and kill my passenger. So I have knowingly failed to obey the law and have killed my passenger. Should I go to jail?If it was your first offence then I have to say no. But but you would have to do many hours of community work.
The Snyder family has forgiven Heatly and I am fairly sure that Heatly has learned a hard lesson and I doubt we'll see anything remotly close to this happening with him again.
Although I am curious to know what auto related problems Heatly had before this incident. That might change my view some.
Okay let's say I'm driving on a highway I'm familiar with. I know there is a spot where the signs indicate that I must slow down from 100 km/h to 60km/h to negotiate a turn but I never do (intentionally not obeying the law) and I have never had any trouble. My passenger has seen me do this many times. One day it is raining and I lose control going through this curve... hit a tree, and kill my passenger. So I have knowingly failed to obey the law and have killed my passenger. Should I go to jail?
The difference is that you knowlingly and deliberately broke the law as opposed to making a bad driving decision. It seems to me that the difference between the two is clear and so there should be a difference in the consequences.
MadDevil
6-04-05, 12:19 AM
I don't think we can really put blame squarely on either Heatley or Snyder for the horrible accident that cost Snyder his life. Yes, Heatley was driving recklessly in a residential area, but is it really that strange for a young man with a sports car to drive fast? Heatley was responsible for driving, and should be treated as the law sees fit. If the law sees fit that he doesn't serve any jail time, that's good enough for me. I know that athletes get preferential treatment by the law in many cases, but that's just a cold, hard fact.
As for Snyder, nobody (except maybe Heatley) knows exactly what happened that night, but I would assume that he was probably enjoying a "joy ride" with his buddy in a sports car. I doubt that Heatley would have continued driving as fast he was if Snyder told him to slow down.
I know that I once made the mistake of getting into a car with a reckless driver, and will never ride in a car with that person at the wheel again. It's a decision that I made, because I didn't feel safe. If Snyder felt safe with Heatley (as I would imagine he did), than he should also hold some responsibility for what happened.
But, like I said the only two people in the world who know what really happened that night are Heatley and Snyder, so this is just my opinion, based on what I've seen of other similarly aged people.
Okay let's say I'm driving on a highway I'm familiar with. I know there is a spot where the signs indicate that I must slow down from 100 km/h to 60km/h to negotiate a turn but I never do (intentionally not obeying the law) and I have never had any trouble. My passenger has seen me do this many times. One day it is raining and I lose control going through this curve... hit a tree, and kill my passenger. So I have knowingly failed to obey the law and have killed my passenger. Should I go to jail?
The difference is that you knowlingly and deliberately broke the law as opposed to making a bad driving decision. It seems to me that the difference between the two is clear and so there should be a difference in the consequences.
There is NO difference.
Well the difference is that we don't seem to agree :laughing:
Newfie John
6-05-05, 4:57 PM
Why? That's the reality of it that no one wants to deal with.
No no, I wasn't talking about your post. I accidently put a post there.. so I edited as *delete*.
Madferret
6-05-05, 5:10 PM
No no, I wasn't talking about your post. I accidently put a post there.. so I edited as *delete*.
Ahhhh...
:thumb:
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