Are the Blueline Injuries a Legitimate Excuse?

[AtLossForWords]

Now back in November when Salo and Bieksa went down long term, we saw this team reach a height they haven't yet again eclipsed this season with the best record in November. At the end of the month, a lot of us felt that we had the depth on defense to spare.

However maybe having not just Salo, but Kevin Bieksa out of the lineup is really hurting us more than we think. Hockey is a team game, and you're goalie represents your defensive effort. With the grungy Grimsby native Bieksa in the lineup, perhaps Luongo's goals against are cut and the PK is really rising back to the top of the league as it was last year.

I think what we've really been missing this season is Kevin Bieksa, especially in this slump where our special teams have slumped.

Bieksa has a shot that gets to the net on the power and is released quickly. No one who has been playing many games of late has a cannon with a quick release on the blueline that hits the net. Salo's blocked drives and wide blasts are just not getting the job done.

If this team did have their stalwart defensive core of

Bieksa Mitchell
Ohlund Edler
Salo Krajicek
Miller Bourdon

ready to suit up for any game, could we be looking at very different outcomes in one goal games of late?

[gordphish]

For the team itself, I can cut them some slack because of the injuries. I mean, you have to. Take three of any team's top 4 defensemen out of the lineup and they will struggle.

I also agree with Vigneault's assessment of late. The team is working hard, so you can't fault the effort. I can't blame Luongo because, as last year's playoffs showed, even when he is playing better than anyone else in the league this team falls short in the end. He has a personal issue right now that would take a toll on anyone's mental focus, and when he is the difference between the team winning and losing, having to be that focussed 100% of the time would tire out anyone after a while. Naslund...Vigneault wants him to go to the dirty areas. Sorry, but that's not Markus Naslund. It never has been and it never will be. That isn't how you get offense out him, plain and simple.

Where the responsibility should fall for where this team is and is seemingly headed, where you cannot allow the injuries on the blueline to be used as an excuse, is with Dave Nonis.

Over the last two seasons, the injuries on the blueline have been the leading factor in the team's demise. In the 05-06 season, they lost Jovanovski for most of the season due to a hip injury that had plagued him off and on during the last season before the lockout. They lost Ohlund and Salo to injuries in the Olympics, and the team missed the playoffs. In 06-07, late season injuries to Salo and Bieksa lead to the team's secondary scoring drying up in the playoffs. Add to the mix Mitchell trying to play through an injury, and the best team in the league from Christmas on bowed out with a wimper to the Ducks in the second round.

Dave Nonis' response to identifying and addressing this glaring weakness? After allowing Jovanovski to walk from this team for nothing the previous offseason, he re-signed the most injury prone player in the league in Sami Salo to a 4 year, 14 million dollar contract that included a no-trade clause, and signed Aaron Miller in the summer. He then proceeded to do absolutely nothing to provide some secondary scoring from his forwards to protect the team from the very likely possibility that their blueline would once again be decimated with injury and therefore not be able to provide said secondary offense.

It is Dave Nonis' inability to identify and correct the weaknesses of the team that has them poised to miss the playoffs for the second time in three seasons, and for that I grant him no excuses. And neither should anyone else, least of all the Acquilinis.

[KB in Kelowna]

Sorry but I can't buy the injuries arguement. If we ( the Vancouver Canucks fan base/team management/players) start accepting the injuries excuse, then we all accept mediocrity ie: we are back to the 70's, the 80's and the latter part of the 90's again. Nonis seems to have built this team around the hope that everyone would stay healthy and players would continue to progress or have career years. For me the only progressions have been Edler, the Sedins, Pyatt and Kesler. Some have played to their level and some (too many) have simply regressed. I don't want to blame Vigneault, but the buttons he pushed last year haven't worked as well this year. I think fortunately the players still buy in, as has been mentioned by most ( Neil McRea notwithstanding) the team is still working, but they are not finishing, much like Novemebr 2006. Maybe February -March 2008 will be a return to the play and results of post Christmas 2006 as well, but I won't hold my breath.

[gordphish]

Consider the following mistakes, and then tell me if the ownership of teams like the Red Wings, Yankees, Red Sox, Lakers or Patriots would still keep the GM that made them.

-Drafts a project defenseman with the 10th overall pick in 05 and passes on a 6'3, 220 lb scoring centre in Kopitar that came straight into the league and had an immediate impact.

-Holds on to the same core that accomplished nothing in the 6 previous seasons under the old GM in the hope that they would somehow do something, so that he could stick it to Stan McCammon on behalf of his best friend that got fired. And does this coming out of the lockout, when a third of the players in the league were available through free agency.

-Turns down Scott Neidermayer when he calls offering to play for the Canucks and keeps Ed Jovanovski and his bad hip. Then lets the same Jovanovski walk for nothing a year later.

-Underestimates the impact that dealing Bertuzzi would have on the production of his captain and leading scorer, and then leaves Naslund hanging in the wind for two years by doing nothing to fix the problem either way.

-Re-signs the most injury prone player in the league to an albatross contract that includes an NTC, compounding the problem of having a defensive core that is left open to injury anyways due to the style they all play while enduring the most taxing travel schedule in hockey.

-Completely ignores the total lack of scoring from his forward group for a full season and a half, while he scours the league's garbage scows for guys like Chouinard, Ritchie, Cowan, Isbister and Beech.

-Passes on a SCORING WINGER in David Perron that has stepped right into the NHL to take a project high school centre in Patrick White in the 07 draft.

Dave Nonis took a huge step forward for this organization when he traded for Luongo. Unfortunately, sickeningly, maddeningly, he has taken another 6 steps backwards with everything else.

[AtLossForWords]

Passing on Scott Niedermayer was about the worst move Nonis made his entire term as GM. A guy who wanted to build his team from the crease out passed on a perrenial Norris candidate in favor of to doctor's office regulars.

I don't like the project draft picks either. He says he wants to build his team through the draft, but when you think the names Kopitar, Perron, Sweat, Mayorov, and numerous others got by him in favor of projects like White and Bourdon, you wonder what kind of a team he is building through the draft.

The argument against Kopitar was always "he's not from a hockey market". Nonis tried to make everyone think he learned his lesson when he drafted Michael Grabner, however the next season he drafts another project type player in Patrick White.

I don't see why a guy who wants to build his team through the draft passes on bluechips like Kopitar and Perron, and insists on going with projects like Bourdon and White.

[TimmyTabasco]

Yes, it is a legimate excuse

Currently the team is missing

-Bieksa
-Mitchell
-Kraijeck
-Salo

Plus, add Morrison..who was playing quite well

Any team would struggle without its four of its top six defenseman, and its second line center...

BTW, how is White a project? We haven't even given this guy a chance..

[gordphish]

Yes, it is a legimate excuse

Currently the team is missing

-Bieksa
-Mitchell
-Kraijeck
-Salo

Plus, add Morrison..who was playing quite well

Any team would struggle without its four of its top six defenseman, and its second line center...

BTW, how is White a project? We haven't even given this guy a chance..

The point is Saucey, Perron is playing in the NHL right now. White is so far from it he has to get a dish just to see what its like. And if Nonis had taken Kopitar, he wouldn't have had to pass on Perron and draft White anyways.

I agree with Lossy. If Nonis wants to build through the draft, then he better start drafting players that can make an immediate impact. This team hasn't had a first round pick step right into the NHL in 20 freaking years.

AND, if his plan is to build through the draft, then why has he hung on to Naslund, Morrison, Salo and Cooke? Why did he let Jovo go for nothing instead of renting him for picks and prospects? Why has he kept throwing away 2nd round picks on garbage?

[rustybadcock]

Sorry but I can't buy the injuries arguement. If we ( the Vancouver Canucks fan base/team management/players) start accepting the injuries excuse, then we all accept mediocrity ie: we are back to the 70's, the 80's and the latter part of the 90's again. Nonis seems to have built this team around the hope that everyone would stay healthy and players would continue to progress or have career years. For me the only progressions have been Edler, the Sedins, Pyatt and Kesler. Some have played to their level and some (too many) have simply regressed. I don't want to blame Vigneault, but the buttons he pushed last year haven't worked as well this year. I think fortunately the players still buy in, as has been mentioned by most ( Neil McRea notwithstanding) the team is still working, but they are not finishing, much like Novemebr 2006. Maybe February -March 2008 will be a return to the play and results of post Christmas 2006 as well, but I won't hold my breath.

Well KB, I agree that one should never lean on injuries, however....this line up has been seriously altered because of them. Perhaps "explanation" is a better word than "excuse".

I think this team is doing an admirable job of things all things considered....when you really consider their season thus far I think it's fair to say they as a group haven't made "excuses". They might however be simply exhausted...people are playing more minutes who usually don't, it's got to break down sooner or later.

You take Phaneuf, Regher, Sarich and Conroy off the Flames and toss in an arriving baby into Kippers mindset and lets see how Keenan's bunch handles the pressure.....;) not to mention their position in the WEst.

RB

[AtLossForWords]

AND, if his plan is to build through the draft, then why has he hung on to Naslund, Morrison, Salo and Cooke? Why did he let Jovo go for nothing instead of renting him for picks and prospects? Why has he kept throwing away 2nd round picks on garbage?

Because Brent Sopel's slapshot and hockey sense was going to help us beat the Ducks.

[gordphish]

Because Brent Sopel's hockey sense was going to help us beat the Ducks.

I think I just had a stroke.

[gordphish]

Well KB, I agree that one should never lean on injuries, however....this line up has been seriously altered because of them. Perhaps "explanation" is a better word than "excuse".

I think this team is doing an admirable job of things all things considered....when you really consider their season thus far I think it's fair to say they as a group haven't made "excuses". They might however be simply exhausted...people are playing more minutes who usually don't, it's got to break down sooner or later.

You take Phaneuf, Regher, Sarich and Conroy off the Flames and toss in an arriving baby into Kippers mindset and lets see how Keenan's bunch handles the pressure.....;) not to mention their position in the WEst.

RB

The only answer I would have to counter that Rusty is that if you look at the season as a whole right now, you could easily say that if it were not for a stellar month of November from Luongo, this team wouldn't be near a playoff spot right now. And I would assert that that little factoid suggests that there are bigger problems with this roster than injuries...a lack of talent being the most prevalent.

[rustybadcock]

The only answer I would have to counter that Rusty is that if you look at the season as a whole right now, you could easily say that if it were not for a stellar month of November from Luongo, this team wouldn't be near a playoff spot right now. And I would assert that that little factoid suggests that there are bigger problems with this roster than injuries...a lack of talent being the most prevalent.

Yeah, it's called Luongo has bigger issues on his mind...it's that simple. Everyone is losing gord - look at the Sens? Emery's gonna tear that team right in half...they've got bigger problems than meet the eye...such a "grim" truth it is...:cry: ;) :laughing:

And I will tell you something else man, I don't necessarily see Luongo pulling out of this in the next weeks, she's not due until april....the team can't wait that long.

I eluded to it earlier as well, something more meets the eye where Naslund is concerned and it might very well be something the entire team is torn over and exhausted by. And it could be that they're just tired of following a loser?....perhaps.

RB

PS. I just don't buy that we're talentless. I think we're better than that. I also think bringing in a core guy or elite talent is harder than you and I think. The best "teams" win it all; is there time to gel in a new superstar? I feel that addition buy subtraction might be a bolder and more promising move. Ala....if there is an issue with say...Naslund...he's got to be moved come hell or high water. However, with all this said if bringing in Foppa could insure a massive change in Naslund, run with it but I just don't see Peter landing here.

[gordphish]

Yeah, it's called Luongo has bigger issues on his mind...it's that simple. Everyone is losing gord - look at the Sens? Emery's gonna tear that team right in half...they've got bigger problems than meet the eye...such a "grim" truth it is...:cry: ;) :laughing:

And I will tell you something else man, I don't necessarily see Luongo pulling out of this in the next weeks, she's not due until april....the team can't wait that long.

I eluded to it earlier as well, something more meets the eye where Naslund is concerned and it might very well be something the entire team is torn over and exhausted by. And it could be that they're just tired of following a loser?....perhaps.

RB

PS. I just don't buy that we're talentless. I think we're better than that. I also think bringing in a core guy or elite talent is harder than you and I think. The best "teams" win it all; is there time to gel in a new superstar? I feel that addition buy subtraction might be a bolder and more promising move. Ala....if there is an issue with say...Naslund...he's got to be moved come hell or high water. However, with all this said if bringing in Foppa could insure a massive change in Naslund, run with it but I just don't see Peter landing here.

Interestingly enough Rusty, the Province is reporting that Nonis has admitted that he is seriously chasing Forsberg...

If they can sign him for this year and next, then I'd give it a shot and bring Naslund back for a one-year contract at a reduced rate. Then I'd buy Salo out in the summer, cut Morrison loose, find a 40 point threat from the third line and try and find a way to bolster the defense with someone that can play 75 games.

But I wouldn't look at Forsberg as being the answer for this season. At this point, they'll be lucky as hell to still be in a playoff spot by the time Mitchell and Bieksa get back into the lineup, Forsberg or no Forsberg.

What I mean by lack of talent is this.

One, they don't have a legitimate powerplay quarterback. Maybe Bourdon or Edler becomes that player next season, maybe not. But right now, that is a serious weakness in their roster.

Two, and let's face facts here, their offense is lead by two second liners that they still haven't been able to find a full-time linemate for. I'd call Henrik a borderline top line centre because of his assist totals, but he doesn't put up top line numbers in the goal scoring department.

Three, they have no other scoring line. Kesler is not, as of yet, a second line centre and Naslund doesn't fit anywhere because they haven't got anyone to compliment him with. Maybe Forsberg is the answer there, maybe those two can form a legitimate first line together and put the Sedins back where they belong. Maybe it will snow tomorrow. Maybe the world will finally outlaw the self-combustion engine. Maybe maybe maybe.

And four, they have a boat load of grinders that work hard, but beyond Kesler when he's used there, they don't really get any scoring from their bottom six. Sure, they get hot and cold action from guys like Burrows, Linden and Cooke, but that's about it. Even if they find a way to finally settle down their top 6, they still need to find someone that can give them some consistent offensive help from the third line.

Lots and lots holes, or to put it another way, a prevalent lack of talent.

[rustybadcock]

Interestingly enough Rusty, the Province is reporting that Nonis has admitted that he is seriously chasing Forsberg...

If they can sign him for this year and next, then I'd give it a shot and bring Naslund back for a one-year contract at a reduced rate. Then I'd buy Salo out in the summer, cut Morrison loose, find a 40 point threat from the third line and try and find a way to bolster the defense with someone that can play 75 games.

But I wouldn't look at Forsberg as being the answer for this season. At this point, they'll be lucky as hell to still be in a playoff spot by the time Mitchell and Bieksa get back into the lineup, Forsberg or no Forsberg.

What I mean by lack of talent is this.

One, they don't have a legitimate powerplay quarterback. Maybe Bourdon or Edler becomes that player next season, maybe not. But right now, that is a serious weakness in their roster.

Two, and let's face facts here, their offense is lead by two second liners that they still haven't been able to find a full-time linemate for. I'd call Henrik a borderline top line centre because of his assist totals, but he doesn't put up top line numbers in the goal scoring department.

Three, they have no other scoring line. Kesler is not, as of yet, a second line centre and Naslund doesn't fit anywhere because they haven't got anyone to compliment him with. Maybe Forsberg is the answer there, maybe those two can form a legitimate first line together and put the Sedins back where they belong. Maybe it will snow tomorrow. Maybe the world will finally outlaw the self-combustion engine. Maybe maybe maybe.

And four, they have a boat load of grinders that work hard, but beyond Kesler when he's used there, they don't really get any scoring from their bottom six. Sure, they get hot and cold action from guys like Burrows, Linden and Cooke, but that's about it. Even if they find a way to finally settle down their top 6, they still need to find someone that can give them some consistent offensive help from the third line.

Lots and lots holes, or to put it another way, a prevalent lack of talent.


I see your points, I agree that henrik would be more a threat on the second line - I was never comfortable when people called them the 1st line. I agree that if PEter is signed, bring back Naslund. I like however, the idea of bringing mo back but whatever, doesn't really matter. I see where you coming from whole heartedly.

I didn't know about how serious Nonuts is on foppa. I like the sounds of that, keep us posted. I guess on that front I am just tired of getting my hopes up, that is all.

I guess my points really are that it doesn't matter who is on the team really, it matters that they're a team first. I always come back to the Avs team that had Selanne on the third line a few years ago....they couldn't do it will that line up....they must not have been a team.

Now's the time for the unusual suspects to really step it up. Without a doubt Kesler needs to produce. Why is this kid not taking a leading charge on this team much like Richards has in Philly? They're similar age, they bring similar skill sets....apparently not. Richards is set to be their next captain and at moment when Kesler should be doing the same for us....he's missing the boat. I guess what I am getting at here is I am not so sure I see the allure as everyone else in this kid. He's been given waaayyy too much ice time while everyone else gets benched....He needs to be a threat EVERY time he's on the ice, and he needs to score all the time IMO in every situation cause he's been put in every situation. He's a career third liner at best and if Toronto wanted him for Sundin...I am not sure I'd balk at it so quick. Wellwood's a better center and had way better hands IMO.

RB

[gordphish]

I see your points, I agree that henrik would be more a threat on the second line - I was never comfortable when people called them the 1st line. I agree that if PEter is signed, bring back Naslund. I like however, the idea of bringing mo back but whatever, doesn't really matter. I see where you coming from whole heartedly.

I didn't know about how serious Nonuts is on foppa. I like the sounds of that, keep us posted. I guess on that front I am just tired of getting my hopes up, that is all.

I guess my points really are that it doesn't matter who is on the team really, it matters that they're a team first. I always come back to the Avs team that had Selanne on the third line a few years ago....they couldn't do it will that line up....they must not have been a team.

Now's the time for the unusual suspects to really step it up. Without a doubt Kesler needs to produce. Why is this kid not taking a leading charge on this team much like Richards has in Philly? They're similar age, they bring similar skill sets....apparently not. Richards is set to be their next captain and at moment when Kesler should be doing the same for us....he's missing the boat. I guess what I am getting at here is I am not so sure I see the allure as everyone else in this kid. He's been given waaayyy too much ice time while everyone else gets benched....He needs to be a threat EVERY time he's on the ice, and he needs to score all the time IMO in every situation cause he's been put in every situation. He's a career third liner at best and if Toronto wanted him for Sundin...I am not sure I'd balk at it so quick. Wellwood's a better center and had way better hands IMO.

RB

IMO there is too much of that going on with this team right now...a composer isn't going to expect his flutes to produce the sound of a group of tubas. Nonis has too many players that have been set up to fail.

"We need first line scoring from the Sedins..."
"We need Naslund to go to the dirty areas and make other players better..."
"We need Kesler to be that second line centre..."
"We need Cooke and Burrows to finish their chances most nights..."
"We need Sami Salo to dominate on the powerplay..."

Just too many guys being asked to do too much right now. If everyone was allowed to fit back into the roles they are best suited for, this team would be poised for a lot more success. But that involves Nonis making some serious adjustments to the roster, and that is clearly something he just isn't willing to do at this particular moment, if ever.

He'd rather waste his time scouting some one-hit wonder on the other side of the planet.

[AtLossForWords]

I don't think the biggest problem on this team is the powerplay quarterback, we have three guys who are capable of filling that role. Edler, Bourdon, and Sami Salo.

One guy Edler is asked to be a shooter when he's a much better set up man, Bourdon hasn't had a chance to stick with the team and show them what he's capable of on the point, and Salo has only had one shot on goal this season (at least it seems like that).

If Salo could get his shot from the point through you'd have a very solid top unit on the blueline with Edler and Salo along with a solid second unit with Bourdon as the trigger man and Ohlund as the passer who can sneak below the hashmarks and not leave a two on 1 going the other way.

The problem with this team is the forward lines. The Sedins and Pyatt work well togethor. That line has a sniper, a net prescence, and one of the best playmakers in the league. The problem is they are asked to produce more than they are best suited for. They are a little to young to be asked to shoulder the duties of a first line.

Raymond and Naslund I don't see as problems in themselves as much as they are misused because of a lack of center. If you had Brendan Morrison there, maybe both guys would be producing a little more when they aren't pegged with the Sedins. Raymond is not a good fit with the Sedins anyway, at least the way I see him.

Peter Forsberg would be an ideal fix for this team. Naslund and Raymond would elevate their game, because they finally have a playmaker who will run a player through the back boards on the forecheck along with being a top notch passer. Who knows, with Forsberg, maybe our shoot out record will improve too if he can pull off his '94 move.

The lack of talent isn't the blueline. It has all it needs with it's current roster players. They have shooters, they have passers, and they have the gritty stalwart defenders.

Obviously we don't need to talk about goaltending on this team.

The problem with this team is that they're trying to make a go of it with a second line and two third lines for their scoring. If you can add a scoring center, you would have a top line, one of the league's best second lines, a great shutdown line, and when healthy, a strong defensive core to compliment one of the league's best goaltenders.

As for Ryan Kesler, I don't see what more you want from the guy. He hustles every shift, and his role on this team is not to score goals, but his role is to be the shutdown man and take the other teams best guy out of the game while Burrows distracts the other teams' tough guys becuase he's a pain in the ass.

Kesler is on pace for 20 goals (he has 13 now) and 36 points. What do you want from your third line shutdown center Rusty?

[Madferret]

Can't really complain about Salo being injured, he's always hurt. Dating back to his days with his Sens, he's a lock to miss 25+ games a year.

But I agree that you guys have been snipped by the injury bug pretty bad.

[gordphish]

I don't think the biggest problem on this team is the powerplay quarterback, we have three guys who are capable of filling that role. Edler, Bourdon, and Sami Salo.

OK, but is capable going to win you a Stanley Cup?

One guy Edler is asked to be a shooter when he's a much better set up man, Bourdon hasn't had a chance to stick with the team and show them what he's capable of on the point, and Salo has only had one shot on goal this season (at least it seems like that).

I disagree. Again, you're talking about limiting Edler's potential to Mathias Ohlund when he could be a Nik Lidstrom. Edler has a great shot...In fact, it reminds me a lot of Ray Bourque's.

If Salo could get his shot from the point through you'd have a very solid top unit on the blueline with Edler and Salo along with a solid second unit with Bourdon as the trigger man and Ohlund as the passer who can sneak below the hashmarks and not leave a two on 1 going the other way.

I've tried pointing out before that this team's PP actually gets worse when Salo is on it. The stats don't lie.

The problem with this team is the forward lines. The Sedins and Pyatt work well togethor. That line has a sniper, a net prescence, and one of the best playmakers in the league. The problem is they are asked to produce more than they are best suited for. They are a little to young to be asked to shoulder the duties of a first line.

Agreed with all but the last statement. Eric Staal wasn't too young to be the first line centre for the Canes when they won the Cup. Vinny Lecavalier is the same age as Daniel and Henrik, and I don't see a problem with what he does as a first line player in Tampa. The issue to me is that the Sedins are simply not first line players.

Raymond and Naslund I don't see as problems in themselves as much as they are misused because of a lack of center. If you had Brendan Morrison there, maybe both guys would be producing a little more when they aren't pegged with the Sedins. Raymond is not a good fit with the Sedins anyway, at least the way I see him.

Come on people. Let's not forget that this team had the same scoring problems with Morrison in the lineup last year. I like Raymond, but if you are counting on him to make Naslund and Morrison more productive, well...you're going to end up right where Nonis is now.

Peter Forsberg would be an ideal fix for this team. Naslund and Raymond would elevate their game, because they finally have a playmaker who will run a player through the back boards on the forecheck along with being a top notch passer. Who knows, with Forsberg, maybe our shoot out record will improve too if he can pull off his '94 move.

Too little, too late.

The lack of talent isn't the blueline. It has all it needs with it's current roster players. They have shooters, they have passers, and they have the gritty stalwart defenders.

What they have is an expensive bunch of M*A*S*H extras...

Obviously we don't need to talk about goaltending on this team.

The problem with this team is that they're trying to make a go of it with a second line and two third lines for their scoring. If you can add a scoring center, you would have a top line, one of the league's best second lines, a great shutdown line, and when healthy, a strong defensive core to compliment one of the league's best goaltenders.

They also have a lack of scoring from their third line, but your point is sound.

As for Ryan Kesler, I don't see what more you want from the guy. He hustles every shift, and his role on this team is not to score goals, but his role is to be the shutdown man and take the other teams best guy out of the game while Burrows distracts the other teams' tough guys becuase he's a pain in the ass.

Kesler is on pace for 20 goals (he has 13 now) and 36 points. What do you want from your third line shutdown center Rusty?

As the third line centre, I have not one problem with Kesler.

The real question that has to be asked at this point is whether or not Nonis sees this team for what it is, or does he still believe that when the rsoter is healthy it is a legit Cup contender as it stands?

Look, I don't care how they win the Cup as long as the do it. Nonis wants to have a tight checking team with an elite goaltender and opportunistic scoring? Great, fine by me. But take a look at the rosters of the Devils teams that won Cups in 2000 and 2003...that 2000 team was one of the highest scoring in the league that year. Nonis cannot lose sight of the fact that the point in hockey is to put the puck in the other team's net if he hopes to compete for a championship. Even when healthy, this team is short at least one more scorer, maybe two and needs a much, much better powerplay. Unfortunately, the time to find a way to add that to the existing group has already passed us by.

[Nelson19777]

No it hasn't, still twelve days left. :D

[gordphish]

No it hasn't, still twelve days left. :D

So you would give up guys like Kesler, Bieksa, Edler and Schneider just to get one of the bottom seeds? Why?

[AtLossForWords]

So you would give up guys like Kesler, Bieksa, Edler and Schneider just to get one of the bottom seeds? Why?

I would move Matt Cooke off this team like he's infected with the plague, that'll actually help us get a bottom seed.

[TimmyTabasco]

So you would give up guys like Kesler, Bieksa, Edler and Schneider just to get one of the bottom seeds? Why?

Excellent point

If the Canucks do make the playoffs as the 8th seed, they will have to face the Wings

If they make it as the 7th seed, they will have to face the Stars

I'd much rather face the Stars, but both opponents would be a very hard task

[Nelson19777]

So you would give up guys like Kesler, Bieksa, Edler and Schneider just to get one of the bottom seeds? Why?

Most likely not all of them, but, depending on what the return was, sure. I'm not looking for the rental either. Why give up now? If the proper pieces can be brought in, wouldn't you try? Most of our dead weight salary is UFA's next year anyway. How much are you really gonna get for Naslund, Morrison, Cooke etc. Nothing, maybe 2 second rounders for all of them combined.

You can say sell, sell, sell, all you want. You've gotta try to squeeze the last drops of talent from the `core' before you let them walk because nobody is going to give us anything for them anyway. To get anything worth value we need to sell youth. So if you have to sacrafice some of the youth for some re-signable scoring, that just might take us to the promised land, then go for it. You can't just give up.

Hey I think we are long overdue for a cup too, but, is every team that doesn't win the cup a failure in your eyes?

[Nelson19777]

Excellent point

If the Canucks do make the playoffs as the 8th seed, they will have to face the Wings

If they make it as the 7th seed, they will have to face the Stars

I'd much rather face the Stars, but both opponents would be a very hard task

So, I guess we should just tank it and see if we can get the first overall pick. :rolleyes:

[gordphish]

Most likely not all of them, but, depending on what the return was, sure. I'm not looking for the rental either. Why give up now? If the proper pieces can be brought in, wouldn't you try? Most of our dead weight salary is UFA's next year anyway. How much are you really gonna get for Naslund, Morrison, Cooke etc. Nothing, maybe 2 second rounders for all of them combined.

You can say sell, sell, sell, all you want. You've gotta try to squeeze the last drops of talent from the `core' before you let them walk because nobody is going to give us anything for them anyway. To get anything worth value we need to sell youth. So if you have to sacrafice some of the youth for some re-signable scoring, that just might take us to the promised land, then go for it. You can't just give up.

Hey I think we are long overdue for a cup too, but, is every team that doesn't win the cup a failure in your eyes?

Ultimately, yes.

[Nelson19777]

Wow, not sure I'd still be a fan if I thought this team was a complete failure for the last 38 years. :toast: Cheers to your future misery.

[gordphish]

Wow, not sure I'd still be a fan if I thought this team was a complete failure for the last 38 years. :toast: Cheers to your future misery.

Well, there's a liitle more to it than that, but that's exactly why I don't like being called a bandwagon jumper. If anyone's proven he's in for the long haul with this team, it's me.

I understand there is always a process involved, and you can't possibly win every year. But that is where the bar should be set. Look at Wally Buono. He sets his sights on the Grey Cup every year. His teams don't win every year, but they are always in contention for it. As soon as you accept second best, you've taken yourself out of the running.

Take a look at the Red Sox. As soon as an ownership group came in that truly set their sites on winning the World Series, the Bambino went from being a ghost to a memory.

GMs in Vancouver get away with all this crap because most of the fans set the bar at making the playoffs and can therefore be pacified with the philosophy "Hey, once you get there anything can happen.". If men like Scotty Bowman, Fred Shero and Vince Lombardi took that attitude, you wouldn't even know who they were now.

[Nelson19777]

You've got me pretty confused now.

I kind of doubt Scotty Bowman, Fred Shero and Vince Lombardi would share your "It's too late to make a deal cause this season is lost" attitude, if their team was only one point out of the playoffs with 25 games left. Something tells me they'd fight. They'd try to bring in some pieces that could help them go as far as they could.

It remains to be seen if Nonis will do it. I sure as hell wouldn't be giving up.

[gordphish]

You've got me pretty confused now.

I kind of doubt Scotty Bowman, Fred Shero and Vince Lombardi would share your "It's too late to make a deal cause this season is lost" attitude, if their team was only one point out of the playoffs with 25 games left. Something tells me they'd fight. They'd try to bring in some pieces that could help them go as far as they could.

It remains to be seen if Nonis will do it. I sure as hell wouldn't be giving up.

Who said anything about giving up? What I'm saying is that they shouldn't deal away their best young players just to try and get one of the last three playoff spots. Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure they could deal Naslund, Morrison, Miller and Cooke and still have a team that could at least contend for that last spot.

With the injuries, their schedule AND the fact that everyone but the Flames, Oilers and Kings have more wins than they do, their chances of getting in are slim. That's not giving up, that's seeing things for what they are without getting blinded by hope. They have a real problem with their salaries after this season, so with the goal of winning the Stanley Cup in mind, their best course of action now is to put their aging UFAs on the market and retool for next year.

[AtLossForWords]

Well right now we sit at 59 games played even with everyone in the Northwest except Edmonton that has played 60.

If I'm deciding whether I'm buying or selling, I base it on this week's matchups against Minnesota and Nashville.

The Canucks sit 7th in the West with 66 points they're four behind San Jose for 5th, 3 behind Nashville for 6th with two games in hand, and they are six points behind the Wild for first in the Northwest and 3rd in the conference.

If this team can win these next two games in regulation, that would really show some character to win the big games against teams they are fighting against for a playoff spot. However if you lose those two games in either shoot outs or regulation, sell and sell fast.

[Nelson19777]

Who said anything about giving up? What I'm saying is that they shouldn't deal away their best young players just to try and get one of the last three playoff spots. Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure they could deal Naslund, Morrison, Miller and Cooke and still have a team that could at least contend for that last spot.

With the injuries, their schedule AND the fact that everyone but the Flames, Oilers and Kings have more wins than they do, their chances of getting in are slim. That's not giving up, that's seeing things for what they are without getting blinded by hope. They have a real problem with their salaries after this season, so with the goal of winning the Stanley Cup in mind, their best course of action now is to put their aging UFAs on the market and retool for next year.

Sounds like "give up" to me.

I'm pretty sure we've kicked this dead horse long enough and will have to agree to disagree. What can you actually get for Naslund, Morrison, Miller and Cooke? One worthwhile pick maybe two for the whole lot. We've got a better chance for this year with them in the roster. It outweighs the return. Get whatever scoring help you can at the deadline and give it everything. You've got to try every year.

[AtLossForWords]

Defenceman Kevin Bieksa is expected to play for the Manitoba Moose on a conditioning stint Tuesday. The Canucks are hopeful he'll be able to return to the NHL next week. - TSN

Ice Chips 2/19 (http://tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=10460&hubname=)

Well, the excuse is about to come to a close, can a healthy blueline push us to the top of Northwest being that we've all but died in our dog days? Knowing that the blueline is going to be getting major pieces back, do you try to make a small risk deadline deal to fill a hole at center until Morrison comes back and possibly knock Ritchie off the depth chart?

[gordphish]

Ice Chips 2/19 (http://tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=10460&hubname=)

Well, the excuse is about to come to a close, can a healthy blueline push us to the top of Northwest being that we've all but died in our dog days? Knowing that the blueline is going to be getting major pieces back, do you try to make a small risk deadline deal to fill a hole at center until Morrison comes back and possibly knock Ritchie off the depth chart?

Tony Gallagher said in the pregame show on the radio that the name he is hearing most is Michael Ryder. What they'd have to give up, who knows? You'd have to think that Cooke would be the player that would make the most sense right now, but I've heard the Habs would like to add a guy that can fight and chip in on offense.

And with Krajicek done for the year, I'd expect Nonis to start dangling his second pick again for a depth defenseman. Wade Belak anyone?

[KB in Kelowna]

Tony Gallagher said in the pregame show on the radio that the name he is hearing most is Michael Ryder. What they'd have to give up, who knows? You'd have to think that Cooke would be the player that would make the most sense right now, but I've heard the Habs would like to add a guy that can fight and chip in on offense.

And with Krajicek done for the year, I'd expect Nonis to start dangling his second pick again for a depth defenseman. Wade Belak anyone?
No thanks.

[gordphish]

No thanks.

Yeah, me neither...but I was taking a quick look at the rosters of teams that are fading out of the picture to see what they have to offer in terms of veteren depth defenders, and there ain't much. It's almost like that depth defender has gone the way of the do-do...

So do they go a little bigger and bring back Marek Malik?

Ohlund / Edler
Mitchell / Bieksa
Malik / Salo
Miller / Weaver
Bourdon

Bearing in mind of how unlikely it is that their blueline will stay that healthy...I don't think Salo has stayed healthy and available for an entire playoff series yet for the Canucks.

[AtLossForWords]

It's not likelyat all the blueline will stay healthy throughout the playoffs.

Salo will miss a couple games of any series they are in providing they aren't swept in the first round, Ohlund will play and stay healthy as will Edler, and Mitchell will play in a full body cast if he can still swing his stick and move his ankles but only be half as effective as he usually is.

[Vanfan]

So you would give up guys like Kesler, Bieksa, Edler and Schneider just to get one of the bottom seeds? Why?


How things change? 2 pts out of the NW lead with a game in hand.

I would definitely give up some future prospects to win the division and go into the playoffs as a top 3 seed.
Wouldn't you?

[gordphish]

How things change? 2 pts out of the NW lead with a game in hand.

I would definitely give up some future prospects to win the division and go into the playoffs as a top 3 seed.
Wouldn't you?

The season is a long way from done. They play 15 games in 29 nights in March, with 10 of those 15 on the road and 6 of those games played back to back in different cities. Even if they survive that stretch, how much will they have left?

As I've pointed out before, you don't have a legitimate shot at the Stanley Cup unless you finish in the top 6 overall. I do not want them giving up Kesler, Edler, Bourdon or Raymond for a rental like Sundin or Hossa based on false hope. If you are going to give up those players, make sure it is for the exact missing piece(s) that will be here for years to come.

And even then, I wouldn't give up Kesler or Edler. In kesler you have a the same type of player that the Devils had in Holik, the Wings have had in Draper and the Stars have had in Lehtinen. All those players played key roles in helping those teams win Stanley Cups. And Edler has the potential to be that dominant number one d-man that can lead their powerplay that this team has NEVER had. That is also an essential component to winning the Stanley Cup.

[Vanfan]

The season is a long way from done. They play 15 games in 29 nights in March, with 10 of those 15 on the road and 6 of those games played back to back in different cities. Even if they survive that stretch, how much will they have left?

As I've pointed out before, you don't have a legitimate shot at the Stanley Cup unless you finish in the top 6 overall. I do not want them giving up Kesler, Edler, Bourdon or Raymond for a rental like Sundin or Hossa based on false hope. If you are going to give up those players, make sure it is for the exact missing piece(s) that will be here for years to come.

And even then, I wouldn't give up Kesler or Edler. In kesler you have a the same type of player that the Devils had in Holik, the Wings have had in Draper and the Stars have had in Lehtinen. All those players played key roles in helping those teams win Stanley Cups. And Edler has the potential to be that dominant number one d-man that can lead their powerplay that this team has NEVER had. That is also an essential component to winning the Stanley Cup.

I agree and I think this year will have alot to do with health as I think it will every year now with the salary cap.
In the past teams could buy their way out of injury problems but not now. The fact the Canucks are in a playoff spot after all their injuries and the parity in the league is amazing.
I don't think that now or in the future where you finish in the final standings carries as much weight as it used to.
Of course if you are healthy all year and just sqeak in, in 8th I don't like your chances but a banged up team that gets healthy at the right time has a great shot.