Lidstrom or Niedermyer?

[wingsnut19]

I get tired of people talking like Niedermyer is clear and by far better than Lidstrom, talking like Lidstrom isn't even in the running for the Norris this year. I don't understand how its so clear that Niedermyer is the better player. Both have very similar point totals, with Niedermyer being only 3 points ahead with the near same amount of games played.

So clearly, I can't base my arguments on point totals that Lidstrom is better, because Niedermyer is leading in that case. I know that people say that +/- is really a useless stat, but its one of my favourites when comparing defenseman, and Lidstrom has the clear lead in that department. He is playing against the other teams top lines, and hasn't had the same luxury that Niedermyer has in sharing that duty with another top defender. The Red Wings defense as a whole may be better than the Ducks, but Schnieder does not compare with Pronger, nor do any of the other defenders on the Wings. My point is that, Niedermyer doesn't always have to be out against the top line on the other team, because theres always the Pronger option as well. I realize that Pronger has been injured for a good part so far, but the same can be said about Schnieder, who really is the only other defender that the Wings have to shut down a top line. Still, Lidstrom has managed to lead the NHL in +/- and is +24 ahead of Niedermyer, while playing almost the same amount of ice time.

Does this set Lidstrom apart? When you compare everything else, and find that the difference is almost negligible, I believe it does. Both have contributed on almost the same percentage of the teams goals, both around 26%, Niedermyer has more penalty minutes (46 to Lidstroms 36), both have about the same amount of PPG's (Niedermyer has six, Lidstrom eight ), and both play a clear leadership role for their team. But, Lidstrom has had the bigger adjustment this year, losing key players in the off season, where Niedermyer gained another good teammate. Both are key to their teams success, but I think if the Red Wings lose Lidstrom, it would be a way bigger deal that the Ducks losing Niedermyer (so long as Pronger is healthy). So, to me Lidstrom has the bigger impact on his team, is level with Niedermyer in almost every aspect of the game, yet has a clear advantage in +/-. Doesn't seem so clear to me that Niedermyer is the better defenseman.

[KB in Kelowna]

Purely subjective but I like Lidstrom more. Just a smoother player IMHO.

[Mel]

I get tired of people talking like Niedermyer is clear and by far better than Lidstrom

I don't get that impression. I think Lidstrom is still well respected as one of the NHL's premier defensemen. On the other hand so is Neidermayer.

If age was not a factor, I would take Lidstrom over Neidermayer.

But given that Lidstrom is 36 and Neidermayer 33, I'd pick the younger guy with more productive years left in his career. No other reason.

[MadDevil]

Choosing between Lidstrom and Niedermayer is like splitting hairs. They're both just overall great defensemen, they can both put points on the board, they're both great skaters, they're both very solid defensively, etc. My Devils bias leads me to lean towards Niedermayer, but to me they're pretty much even in terms of being the best defenseman in the league.

[wingsnut19]

I don't get that impression. I think Lidstrom is still well respected as one of the NHL's premier defensemen. On the other hand so is Neidermayer.

If age was not a factor, I would take Lidstrom over Neidermayer.

But given that Lidstrom is 36 and Neidermayer 33, I'd pick the younger guy with more productive years left in his career. No other reason.
It could very well just be the people that I have conversations with. Over and over again I hear people say that Lidstrom is out of the running, that Neidermyer, Pronger, and Chara have all stepped above him as the best defensemen in the league. Quite honestly, I think that Pronger, Neidermyer, and Lidstrom are all on par with eachother, but Chara isn't at their level. I also do not think that Lidstrom will win the Norris this year, mostly based on the fact that people like to see change, and that its just so close. Next year will be Phaneufs year.

[PDO]

Niedermayer isn't even the best defenseman on his team.

Phaneuf winning the Norris next year would be disgusting. The last thing the Norris should be about is the defenseman with the best slapshot and biggest hits.

He needs Roman freaking Hamrlik to make him look good. With Brodeur playing like "Brodeur," Phaneuf has easily become the most over-rated player in the league. At this state in his career he's Andy Delmore with hitting. He needs atleast another 2-3 years of solid development before he should even be mentioned in any current Norris talks. Lidstrom, Pronger, Niedermayer, Chara and Zubov can control games. Phaneuf can change games, but he sure as hell can't control them.

[THE HACK]

I'll take Lidstrom because I think he's better defensively than Niedermayer.

Cheers

[charlio lemieux]

Niedermayer isn't even the best defenseman on his team.



That's funny. Scary part is it could even be true.

Lidstrom, Neidermayer and Pronger are 1,2,3 no question. What order you personally rank them to me is like, as mentioned above, "splitting hairs".

Chara while definitely being unique in the league ( I would have kept him in a heartbeat over Redden) is still not in the class of the "big three".

[MadDevil]

With Brodeur playing like "Brodeur," Phaneuf has easily become the most over-rated player in the league.

I need to write this down on my calendar...

January 30th, 2007 - PDO backs off claims of Brodeur being most overated player in the NHL.

Now if only you could realize that the trap is the greatest contribution to the game of hockey, your journey towards the dark side will be complete.:nod:

[charlio lemieux]

Now if only you could realize that the trap is the greatest contribution to the game of hockey, your journey towards the dark side will be complete.:nod:
Baby Steps. First he needs to admit it was a big reason behind Edmonton's success last spring. :laughing:

[Max Power]

Chara while definitely being unique in the league ( I would have kept him in a heartbeat over Redden) is still not in the class of the "big three".

I don't buy that for one second
Although I won't argue Redden is better then those three he is definitely in their class. People who think Ottawa should have kept Chara before Redden obviously don’t watch the Sens and Redden enough to see the impact he has on a team.

[Mel]

I don't see Redden's impact because I don't really watch the Sens too much Maxy.

But I feel that Chara is one of the games most dominating defensemen. I put him on the same pedestal as the aforementioned "big 3". That's just my HO.

[charlio lemieux]

I don't buy that for one second
Although I won't argue Redden is better then those three he is definitely in their class. People who think Ottawa should have kept Chara before Redden obviously don’t watch the Sens and Redden enough to see the impact he has on a team.
My logic for keeping Chara over Redden is very simple.

How many smooth skating defensemen with good passing skills and decent defensive ability are there in the league? 20? 30? More?

Now how many 6'9" players that can score 40pts a year are there? 1.

Redden is one of many, Chara is unique. If it were up to me the decision would have been easy.

[PDO]

I don't see Redden's impact because I don't really watch the Sens too much Maxy.

But I feel that Chara is one of the games most dominating defensemen. I put him on the same pedestal as the aforementioned "big 3". That's just my HO.

I think Lidstrom and Pronger are in their own level and Niedermayer is a half step below them.

Niedermayer is a clear choice for #3, but I don't think he's really all that more special than Chara or Zubov.

Lidstrom and Pronger are elite defensemen because they're nearly impossible to beat one-on-one, immune to defensive lapses, can make a first-pass with precision and ease second to none, have booming slapshots and can QB a PP.

Niedermayer is an elite defenseman because he is one of the best skaters in the NHL, has an out-standing first pass and can QB a PP. He doesn't have the shot that the other two have, nor does he have the perfection positioning. He makes mistakes. He recovers for a lot of them with his fantastic speed, but I still think the net gain from the other two is more.

Chara is just a slightly worse version of Pronger. Doesn't make the pass nearly as well and makes more mistakes.

Zubov is a guy without any physical side, but who is an elite player in every aspect of the game.

Anyway..

MD, mark me on it. He's been fantastic this year. He's playing like he did in the 90's and actually playing up to his reputation. It's nice to see. I have no problems with him, it was just annoying to see everyone call him the best goalie in the league because of what he'd done 10 years ago when everything spat in the face of that idea.

Hell, even if Marty was playing normal I think Dion would have taken the title from him. The guy's still a 5/6 defenseman who can play on the #1 Unit and hit and he's getting Norris consideration... disgusting.

[Man.Utd]

I wanted Chara over Redden in the summer and my stance remains unchanged. As other's has mentioned Chara is one of a kind. Redden is just an above average defenseman with an elite break-out pass; possibly the best in the NHL. But he's not worth 6.5M. Surely, there are other defenseman with a rell-rounded games / good break-out passes for less coin than that. He makes our PP better but nothing special as his backers would suggest- we're still sitting right in the middle of the league in that regard over half-way through the season. And we have sucked as much as ever with the man advantage recently, even with Wade present.

Redden can put up as many points and make as many quality outlet passes as he wants to in the regular season. I don't really care. With or without Redden this is a team that will make the playoffs.He has do it in playoff style hockey. Up until this point he has always folded under a strong agressive forecheck in the post-season. I know Redden played well last spring but Tampa Bay and Buffalo were both very soft hockey clubs. Neither series had that physical, playoff intensity to it. It was no surprise to me to see Redden finally play well and for the media to blow it up. But Sens fans are kidding themselves if they think the road to the Cup will ever exclude gritty, physical hockey. It's going to be a battle. That's where Chara not only proved his worth but also raised his game. Redden folded. I'm hoping it's a new story this time around.

* If any Western Canadian team is willing to show him the money as a UFA I still think we lose Redden for nothing. Chara may have comanded a whole 500k more in salary but I'm sure if we showed him any sort of commitment he would have done the same; after Muckler pulled a fast one on his friend Hossa - which had to be done due to the cap - Zdeno was looking for security more than anything in negotiations. You can't blame him.

Redden's comments last summer after another playoff defeat left a sour taste in my mouth - espcially since his chronic underachieving has been a big reason for our struggles come April.

[Man.Utd]

I voted Lidstrom.

It is beyond belief that a guy with 4 Norris trophies, 3 Stanley Cups, 7 First All-Star Team selections, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy, and an Olympic Gold Medal can get such little recognition. As if that wasn't enough he's coming off of a season where he posted a PPG to go along with his career average .74 PPG as a defenseman.

Even in Sweden he flys under the radar where all the talk is about Sundin and Forsberg.

Everyone talks about Lidstrom as an outstanding defenseman but he often doesn't get the praise that you'd expect for a generation talent. Maybe it's because he plays out West in Detroit but I refuse to buy the Eastern bias line when Detroit gets so much exposure.

No debate is needed IMO. Lidstrom has been the NHL's finest for quite some time.

Maybe you need to throw huge hits to get any credit today......

[PDO]

Maybe you need to throw huge hits to get any credit today......

Unless his name is Redden? :]

[Man.Utd]

Unless his name is Redden? :]

Lol good reply.

But many overrated defensemen, or at least those who are overrated defensively, get that reputation due to their strong physical play.

- I'm not so sure Redden is as much overrated as he is overpaid. He's probably a top 10 defenseman. Even if his outlet pass is probably the only elite part of his game, as I said before, he still does everything else pretty well (except stand up to physical play. And defend a 2 on 1). But there's no way that should get him 6.5M. I haven't checked the numbers but after Chara (7.5M) and Lidstrom (7.6) I think that makes him the highest paid defenseman in the league. :no: I've already expressed my views on Lidstrom so if any d-man is worth that much it's him. Meanwhile, Chara can warrant a contract a mill or two above his market value because he is not only one of a kind in the league but also locked in long-term.

Redden will be a pending UFA next season and I fear he'll walk if Edmonton or Calgary comes calling.

[PDO]

My philosophy on defensemen in simple in the cap era.

There's 5 defenseman today I'd put anything more than 10% of the cap towards. Pronger, Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Zubov and Chara.

No one else, no exceptions. The rest of them are all rather replaceable. Just look at what a guy like Brett Maclean can do in Colorado with top 4 minutes.

If you're throwing big money to a guy on the back end he has to be an elite defenseman. Simply said; great isn't good enough.

Personally.. I don't see the point in paying a guy like Wade Redden a dime over $4,000,000. I'd rather spend that extra $2,500,000 on a scoring winger who can play D or upgrading my goaltending or my C, etc.

[HexCopterKey]

I like Lidstrom more than Niedermayer but I think Scotty's been better than him this year. I'm not sure exactly what the poll's asking so I won't vote because all-time I'd take Lidstrom, this year I'd take Niedermayer by a hair, but I'd take Pronger over both. He's been injured too long to win the Norris though.

And I agree with you on Phaneuf PDO, I'm tired of hearing about "Phaneuf the monster". He's a big hitter and has a good shot for his age and that only helps people in their cause to turn a blind eye to his 50 defensive lapses a game.

Not on brodeur though. He's played on some good defensive teams and was probably overrated because of that but most overrated? I don't think so.

[Max Power]

I wanted Chara over Redden in the summer and my stance remains unchanged. As other's has mentioned Chara is one of a kind. Redden is just an above average defenseman with an elite break-out pass; possibly the best in the NHL. But he's not worth 6.5M. Surely, there are other defenseman with a rell-rounded games / good break-out passes for less coin than that. He makes our PP better but nothing special as his backers would suggest- we're still sitting right in the middle of the league in that regard over half-way through the season. And we have sucked as much as ever with the man advantage recently, even with Wade present.

Redden can put up as many points and make as many quality outlet passes as he wants to in the regular season. I don't really care. With or without Redden this is a team that will make the playoffs.He has do it in playoff style hockey. Up until this point he has always folded under a strong agressive forecheck in the post-season. I know Redden played well last spring but Tampa Bay and Buffalo were both very soft hockey clubs. Neither series had that physical, playoff intensity to it. It was no surprise to me to see Redden finally play well and for the media to blow it up. But Sens fans are kidding themselves if they think the road to the Cup will ever exclude gritty, physical hockey. It's going to be a battle. That's where Chara not only proved his worth but also raised his game. Redden folded. I'm hoping it's a new story this time around.

* If any Western Canadian team is willing to show him the money as a UFA I still think we lose Redden for nothing. Chara may have comanded a whole 500k more in salary but I'm sure if we showed him any sort of commitment he would have done the same; after Muckler pulled a fast one on his friend Hossa - which had to be done due to the cap - Zdeno was looking for security more than anything in negotiations. You can't blame him.

Redden's comments last summer after another playoff defeat left a sour taste in my mouth - espcially since his chronic underachieving has been a big reason for our struggles come April.

I may have agreed with you in the 'old' NHL but I don't see eye to eye with you on this at all. Sens fans have a love hate relation with Redden and I guess you're the later.
Chara was constantly exposed last playoff against Tampa and Buffalo. In fact I considered him just plain bad. Without the clutching a grabbing from the old league Reddens exceptional skating ability and natural talent gives him elite status. Just throw him on the big ice and it becomes even more evident. You can dismiss all the stats you want but the fact is Sens have only loss a few game with a healthy Redden in the lineup.
As far as the PP goes I've somewhat felt the same but I don't believe it's any players fault. Ottawa has always had problems generating offence from the point and we've had many defensemen with a good shot.
Maybe I'll eat crow this post season but I think our 6 million dollar man will prove worthy again

[Man.Utd]

I give Chara a pass due to injury. He's always came up big in the playoffs.

I forget the stats last season, but how many shots did Ovechkin get against us last year when we put Chara on him? It was rediculously low and AO is one of the hardest players in the league to contain. The new rules definatly hurt his game a bit but that's the case for all big, physical defensemen. He's still an elite player.

Again, Buffalo and Tampa were both soft clubs. It wasn't really "playoff hockey" we saw against those two clubs. All Tampa wanted to do was run and gun and it cost them the series. Look at game 1 vs. Buffalo and tell me if it felt like playoff hockey vs. the Sabres. It felt more like an all-star game. It's no surprise to me that Redden looked good. But the road to the Cup is a long one. Eventually, you're going to incounter some battles and that's when Redden has typically look lost and Chara raised his game.

We'll have to wait until the post-season and see what happens; my beef with Redden has never been over the course of 82 games. I think that when the playoffs role around we'll be sorry we didn't sign Chara instead. Time will tell. Even if Redden could just maintain his regular season form, and not regress like he has each April until the previous, that'd be a step in the right direction.

- The big ice issue I concede as it makes it much harder for Chara to defend the fast, skilled players. But it's not something I'd worry about being in the NHL. ;)