View Full Version : Re-building
Well fellow Leaf fans, its looking like the MSLE will no longer be able to rely on the big money to help build their team as a salary cap IS on the horizon. That being the case, I still believe JFJ is the right man for this job. His background is player devleopment and scouting and each year he has put more emphasis on that aspect of the business. Its not going to happen overnight but they do have a few building blocks which they can build on.
Telquist, Stajan, Coliacivo, and Steen just to name a few. If the Leafs can get lucky and get a low pick in the lottery thats being discussed that could ad to the building project that is comming.
I've been a Leaf fan since the dark ages called Ballard, and I've always wanted this team to go in the direction of building within. The salary cap is going to change the way the Leafs and other high spending teams do business. Hopefully JFJ is given a chance to prove himself and that he does exactly that and builds a winner.
And the :jazz: played on as the Titanic sank :cry:
bluemeanie
4-12-05, 10:08 AM
It's not as though that cash surplus was winning us any trophies worth mentioning.
I don't think that it's any coincidence that JFJ with his back ground in scouting and team development was chosen as GM... Many teams had the foresight that this whole mess was brewing. So we traded a few young prospects for older un-talent -big deal. We took one last shot and missed. I've developed a belief that the Leaf organization really wants to win this thing, something that I secretly doubted for some years.
The Insider
4-12-05, 6:59 PM
The only way we are going to be able to compete in a cap system is if we finally devote our resources to scouting. I don't mind signing free agents, but these major players going to different teams doesn't guarentee a championship and it's almost as if every year that's the direction the Leafs go. I think the Toronto media has got to the point where every year they expect a big signing to right the ship and the only way to achieve that in a cap system is to draft properly. That means no more trading away picks for over the hill guys, and drafting guys to fit into a certain spot with the team, 12 Snipers and 6 Stay at home defenceman will not win it all, there needs to be a safe balance and if they draft towards that formula, they will succeed.
As long as we don't have to wait 84 years for another championship, build the team and get it done.
From Steve Simmons - Tor Sun - LINK (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2005/04/12/993015-sun.html)
HAVE ALEXANDER Mogilny, Gary Roberts and Joe Nieuwendyk played their last games for the Maple Leafs? It is like a lot of hockey questions. It has no real answer.
Every day, John Ferguson Jr. goes to work and every day he deals with his projections and his roster planning, having no idea what the new landscape of the National Hockey League will bring.
Last summer, when he was hired by the Leafs, he became the GM of someone else's team. Now, working his way through the great unknown, he's about to build his own team, and one way or another, his own reputation.
Ferguson has eight players of consequence under contract should hockey, as we know it, return next season. That's a commitment of $27 million US, assuming the 24% rollback in salaries. But missing from that list are many who contributed most to Maple Leafs success in recent seasons.
CORE PLAYERS
Mogilny, one of the fortunate few who was paid for not playing this season, will see his contract expire at the end of June. The same is true for Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Brian Leetch and Tie Domi, all of them core players on an upper-level team.
But what now for them?
"We have to make a determination of who we want and how much we choose to commit to any player," said Ferguson, which is his best way of saying he doesn't know if any of them will return or if he necessarily wants them.
"There's a host of possibilities out there. And what we were asking for at our meetings last week was some kind of guidelines. Will there be a rights period for free agents where we can extract value from our assets? What are the rules we're going to be working under? We were given some ideas, but did we get concrete answers? No.
"And we won't have them until some kind of deal is made."
Mogilny is 36 years old and coming off an eight-goal season. His upside is his breathtaking skill; his downside is not only age and health, but there are those inside the Maple Leafs dressing room who believe he bailed on the team last spring.
Roberts turns 39 next month. His upside is what he brings to a team in tenacity and leadership and he did manage 28 goals. If coach Pat Quinn makes the call, don't expect Roberts back. If Roberts returns, it likely will be a Ferguson decision.
Nieuwendyk will be 39 before next season. He is coming off an excellent season and an excellent playoffs. He also missed 18 regular-season games and four playoff games because of injury. The thinking has been that Roberts and Nieuwendyk are a package deal, but the Leafs might have more interest in Nieuwendyk than they do in close friend Roberts.
Leetch, who was acquired in a deal that may end up hurting the Leafs, played well in his 15 regular-season and 13 playoff games. But he would turn 38 next season and has indicated to some people he would rather return to New York than play again in Toronto.
Ferguson won't talk about any of the individual cases for obvious reasons and can't negotiate anything even if he wanted to.
"Everything is unprecedented," said Ferguson, who inherited a contender a year and a half ago and now must privately renovate his roster. "It's a new playing field and we don't even know what the playing field is.
"All I know, and I say this with confidence, I don't believe there is a more desirable place for a player to be. This is arguably hockey's biggest stage."
He may need that sales pitch to rebuild the Leafs into contenders again. But he doesn't know. Nobody does.
---
NUMBERS GAME
Status of players under contract to the Leafs and those who are free agents:
- Maple Leafs 2005-06
Mats Sundin $6.8 mil
Owen Nolan $5.6 mil
Ed Belfour $4.56 mil
Bryan McCabe $3.45 mil
Tomas Kaberle $2.2 mil
Ken Klee $1.9 mil
Darcy Tucker $1.59 mil
Matt Stajan $805,000
- Group 2 free agents
Nik Antropov
Chad Kilger
Alexei Ponikarovsky
Aki Berg
Wade Belak
- Unrestricted free agents
Alexander Mogilny
Gary Roberts
Joe Nieuwendyk
Brian Leetch
Tie Domi
Trevor Kidd
Bryan Marchment
Ron Francis
All figures in US dollars and include 24% salary rollback
scorpionn
4-13-05, 7:44 AM
Knowing the Leafs they'll probably try one last kick at it, depending on when the lockout ends...
Wouldn't be suprised if Mogilny, Nieuwendyk and Roberts left... but players like Lindros and Allison could be signed for a low amount of dough (since they have stated they want to play in Toronto).
I'm hoping Leetch doesn't go anywhere... that trade is looking even worse since they gave up 2 promising prospects and 2 picks for a guy who could have only played 15 games in a Leaf uniform...
bluemeanie
4-13-05, 9:08 AM
As long as we don't have to wait 84 years for another championship, build the team and get it done.
I'm not sure that I have 84 years left in me, Insider.
Luckily, I think that in the last two years or so the Leafs have already began their inititives to improve their scouting... I think the days of viewing the leafs as a money hungry - no developing talent - freak show are over... well, atleast until Hockey resumes again that is. =]
Max Power
4-13-05, 9:38 AM
I'm not sure that I have 84 years left in me, Insider.
Luckily, I think that in the last two years or so the Leafs have already began their inititives to improve their scouting... I think the days of viewing the leafs as a money hungry - no developing talent - a freak show are over... well, atleast until Hockey resumes again that is. =]
Total leaf bias
=]
TimmyTabasco
4-13-05, 12:02 PM
Where is Johnny? :laughing: Actually he is a Leaf fan who would agree with the rebuilding these days
The Leafs have been in denial of rebuilding for years, and its about time. They did right in hiring Ferguson, and know need to look at the team from the coach and out.
They need to stop to be the spokesteam for "depends", and start to enter the furure. Many Canadian teams have done so
-Calgary
-Montreal
-Vancouver
Each of these clubs has improved slightly each year due to the rebuilding process, and the future has never looked better. Now its time for the Leafs to go down the same road.
:coffee:
Newfie John
4-13-05, 4:47 PM
I'm all for rebuilding and I think the future is prosperous. There are the obvious suspects of Matt Stajan, Carlo Colaiocovo, Mikeal Tellqvist, and Alexander Steen as our future cornerstones. But we have a great supporting cast to go with them. Ian White has been rock solid in his rookie year in the AHL. Brendan Bell has really improved. Kyle Wellwood has been nothing short of outstanding working his way in front of Matt Stajan on the depth chart IMO. Then there is Jeremy Williams who is no doubt a project, he's had a decent rookie year and with more playing time with the Marlies next year he may blossom. Andy Wozniewsky has fought injuries this year but in the time he played he's looked awesome playing on the top pairing with Colaiocovo, Wozzy is a rookie mind you. Dmitri Vorobiev, last years 5th round pick has also been looking like an utter steal being one of the top defencemen in the WJC this past Christmas. Robbie Earl, our 6th round selection is also looking like a very promising young sniper coming up. Recently signed Hobey Baker finalist Colin Murphy has me astonished with his play so far, he's hit so many posts its amazing but he will break out sooner rather then later.
What many people say is that the leafs will suck because of the Salary cap. I completely disagree. I think they have a good injection of youth on its way up(5 former Team Canada WJC members) and just think of all the profit they will have to throw around with say a 35 million dollar cap. Just imagine all the money they could put into scouting, more then any team by far. They could take all of the best scouts in the league and turn out to be winners at the draft. They could put it in coaching to make the progession of players better. Money no matter what, cap or no cap will still give a team the upper hand, unless they put a salary cap on scouts and coaches.
1st post.
Leafs have a long, slow rebuilding process ahead. With their current setup of prospects, I wouldn't be surprised for them to miss the playoffs when hockey resumes for a good 2-3 years. They have 3.. maybe 4 prospects ready for the bigs, and none in a huge way. Wellwood and Stajan are 2nd liners at best, Coliacovo is a 3-4 defenseman, and Telly is a mediocre starter.
TimmyTabasco
4-13-05, 6:38 PM
Leafs have a long, slow rebuilding process ahead. With their current setup of prospects, I wouldn't be surprised for them to miss the playoffs when hockey resumes for a good 2-3 years. They have 3.. maybe 4 prospects ready for the bigs, and none in a huge way. Wellwood and Stajan are 2nd liners at best, Coliacovo is a 3-4 defenseman, and Telly is a mediocre starter.
Well said. The Leafs youth is about as bad as the Canucks :eek:
The Oilers and Habs are the opposite
Leafs have a long, slow rebuilding process ahead. With their current setup of prospects, I wouldn't be surprised for them to miss the playoffs when hockey resumes for a good 2-3 years. They have 3.. maybe 4 prospects ready for the bigs, and none in a huge way. Wellwood and Stajan are 2nd liners at best, Coliacovo is a 3-4 defenseman, and Telly is a mediocre starter.Hard to argue this. I for one believe that there are going to be a few lean years in Leaf Land. But I strongly believe that JFJ is the right guy in place to complete this mission. The players mentioned are good but its debatable wether these are the corner stones of a championship team
Time is going to be the ultimate test for these players.
The Insider
4-13-05, 7:17 PM
I actually believe that the Leafs are in the best position to rebuild now then ever before. JFJ has done a great job at getting together a solid scouting team who can scout some good talent. Mix that with the assets that the Leafs have to bait to other teams and you might be able to build a very good team. Although like I said, they need to develop a good mix of players to build and if they can do that, they will be able to develop a team that can seriously compete for the cup and know they are going there rather then hoping they can get there.
lapniappe
4-13-05, 7:46 PM
lol have the Leafs even waited a first 84 years? As i've said a lot - if they were smart, really, really smart, they would scoop up the best that the scouting talent had to offer with the 29 other teams letting them go and creating an uber scouting team
Newfie John
4-13-05, 8:03 PM
Leafs have a long, slow rebuilding process ahead. With their current setup of prospects, I wouldn't be surprised for them to miss the playoffs when hockey resumes for a good 2-3 years. They have 3.. maybe 4 prospects ready for the bigs, and none in a huge way. Wellwood and Stajan are 2nd liners at best, Coliacovo is a 3-4 defenseman, and Telly is a mediocre starter.
I agree with you that the leafs probably won't make the playoffs for 2-3 years, but you're underrating Wellwood, Coli and Telly. You could be right about Wellwood, but he certainly has the potential to be a top line guy. Colaiocovo will definately be a top 2 guy. Tellqvist has had injury troubles this year, but from my experiences he should evolve into a steady #1 goaltender. As the scouts say, he's the best goaltender to ever come out of Sweden.
I agree with you that the leafs probably won't make the playoffs for 2-3 years, but you're underrating Wellwood, Coli and Telly. You could be right about Wellwood, but he certainly has the potential to be a top line guy. Colaiocovo will definately be a top 2 guy. Tellqvist has had injury troubles this year, but from my experiences he should evolve into a steady #1 goaltender. As the scouts say, he's the best goaltender to ever come out of Sweden.
Name one current defenseman you'd use the word "elite" with that has spent 5 years in the minors. You'll be hard-pressed to find one. The elite defenseman, heck, even the good top pairing defensemen (Eric Brewer, for example) find ways into the lineup within 3 years. Say what you want about Quinn, but if Coli truly was a top pairing defenseman, he'd have had more than a cup of coffee by now.
Wellwood is a 2nd liner. He's an average skater, reguardless of the fact he managed to be jumping up and down over a decent time that beat a guy who fell by .003 seconds. Wellwood is also a boom or bust. He'll either score 60 points a season his entire career, or he'll do nothing.. he doesn't have the ability to be enough of a two-way player. His ultimate upside is that of a Comrie or Briere.
The best goalie to come out of Sweden... like he has a lot contend with :coffee: . If he proves something, fine, but until then you're assuming all 3 of these guys meet their maximum potential, which is looking more and more unlikely.
Newfie John
4-13-05, 9:03 PM
Name one current defenseman you'd use the word "elite" with that has spent 5 years in the minors. You'll be hard-pressed to find one. The elite defenseman, heck, even the good top pairing defensemen (Eric Brewer, for example) find ways into the lineup within 3 years. Say what you want about Quinn, but if Coli truly was a top pairing defenseman, he'd have had more than a cup of coffee by now.
In Coli's time in the NHL in pre-season or his short stint in the regular season, he's looked great. It's baffled me that he hasn't been in the NHL for 2 years already. One thing was that he has had to bulk up and get a little more resonsible defensively, which he has done, according to JFJ, Trapp, and yes, even Pat Quinn. Pat always took his veterans over his youngsters no matter how good the kids were. Take Matt Stajan last year, he deserved to be in the line up every night. It is common sense that defencemen take longer to develop than forwards do also. Colaiocovo hasn't been in the minors for 5 years considering he was drafted in 2001. He probably would have made the leaf team this year, so that brings it down to 3. He's played 2 years in the AHL(This year being his second). So I don't know where you got the 5 year figure from.
Wellwood is a 2nd liner. He's an average skater, reguardless of the fact he managed to be jumping up and down over a decent time that beat a guy who fell by .003 seconds. Wellwood is also a boom or bust. He'll either score 60 points a season his entire career, or he'll do nothing.. he doesn't have the ability to be enough of a two-way player. His ultimate upside is that of a Comrie or Briere.
Last year Wellwood couldn't skate period. His skating this year has improved dramatically. Skating can improve, as Wellwood has shown. There is no reason why he can't continue improving. He has good enough speed now. He's just like Adam Oates. Adam Oates was no dynamo of a skater either. Something Wellwood has that neither Comrie or Briere have is grit.
The best goalie to come out of Sweden... like he has a lot contend with :coffee: . If he proves something, fine, but until then you're assuming all 3 of these guys meet their maximum potential, which is looking more and more unlikely.
That includes the Tommy Salo in his prime who was pretty good. Not to mention that guy Lindberg who played for Philly I believe it was in the 70's if I'm not mistaken.
In Coli's time in the NHL in pre-season or his short stint in the regular season, he's looked great. It's baffled me that he hasn't been in the NHL for 2 years already. One thing was that he has had to bulk up and get a little more resonsible defensively, which he has done, according to JFJ, Trapp, and yes, even Pat Quinn. Pat always took his veterans over his youngsters no matter how good the kids were. Take Matt Stajan last year, he deserved to be in the line up every night. It is common sense that defencemen take longer to develop than forwards do also. Colaiocovo hasn't been in the minors for 5 years considering he was drafted in 2001. He probably would have made the leaf team this year, so that brings it down to 3. He's played 2 years in the AHL(This year being his second). So I don't know where you got the 5 year figure from.
Typo.. was supposed to be 4, but I stand by 4. I highly doubt he makes the team this year, based on Toronto having the exact same D-Corps all under contract. Major Juniors = Minors, once you're drafted, for all extensive purposes. Either way, he'll be closing in on 23 when the NHL resumes, and still has never played a full season in the AHL. In fact, it doesn't look like he's ever played a full season at ANY level, which must be pretty worrisome.
Last year Wellwood couldn't skate period. His skating this year has improved dramatically. Skating can improve, as Wellwood has shown. There is no reason why he can't continue improving. He has good enough speed now. He's just like Adam Oates. Adam Oates was no dynamo of a skater either. Something Wellwood has that neither Comrie or Briere have is grit.
I agree on the skating to a point. I've seen it in Stoll, and expect/am seeing it in Schremp. You can improve it, but you can't give anyone speed to burn. You can get them to about average.. not much further. I think you're dreaming if you think Wellwood has Oates potential. Like I said, he'll be 60 points a season, or a nobody.. size matters enough for that. Say what you want, if he can't be an effective point-getter, he'll be replaced by either A) a stronger skater or B) someone with a lot more size to play in that bottom 6.
That includes the Tommy Salo in his prime who was pretty good. Not to mention that guy Lindberg who played for Philly I believe it was in the 70's if I'm not mistaken.
Salo was always average to above-average at best.. his ES SV % has been almost the same his entire career, and he was unwilling to get better. Until Belarus, he was viewed as the best Swedish goalie ever, IIRC, with Lindberg a close second. Someone from the era can feel free to correct me on that. Telly could be an average goalie, but he won't be what Belfour and Cujo have been.
Newfie John
4-13-05, 9:32 PM
Typo.. was supposed to be 4, but I stand by 4. I highly doubt he makes the team this year, based on Toronto having the exact same D-Corps all under contract. Major Juniors = Minors, once you're drafted, for all extensive purposes. Either way, he'll be closing in on 23 when the NHL resumes, and still has never played a full season in the AHL. In fact, it doesn't look like he's ever played a full season at ANY level, which must be pretty worrisome.
The lockout has taken a year away from him. I'm confident he would have made the team this year since Quinn said he'd be playing. His injuries are something I'm not worried about. It's not like he has the same nagging injury, he's had two freak accidents. The kid just has bad luck in that respect. Puck in the ear causing a torn eardrum then a hit into an opening door.
I agree on the skating to a point. I've seen it in Stoll, and expect/am seeing it in Schremp. You can improve it, but you can't give anyone speed to burn. You can get them to about average.. not much further. I think you're dreaming if you think Wellwood has Oates potential. Like I said, he'll be 60 points a season, or a nobody.. size matters enough for that. Say what you want, if he can't be an effective point-getter, he'll be replaced by either A) a stronger skater or B) someone with a lot more size to play in that bottom 6.
Adam Oates had all these critics saying these exact same things about him. Take a look at Jason Spezza, look how he can skate, its fair to say he's above average now. Look at him when he played his first year in AHL. Wellwood has been showing the same signs. Wellwood has the potential to get up to 80 points IMO, which in Oates' era would have been 100. If Wellwood gets 60, I'll be happy.
Salo was always average to above-average at best.. his ES SV % has been almost the same his entire career, and he was unwilling to get better. Until Belarus, he was viewed as the best Swedish goalie ever, IIRC, with Lindberg a close second. Someone from the era can feel free to correct me on that. Telly could be an average goalie, but he won't be what Belfour and Cujo have been.
I dont think he'll ever be elite either. I think he'll be rock solid though. He'll have a pretty good defence in front of him also. Another reason why I'm very comfortable with Telly as our goalie of the future. I do think he'll be better than Salo was though.
Leafs_Pam
4-18-05, 5:35 PM
The only way we are going to be able to compete in a cap system is if we finally devote our resources to scouting. I don't mind signing free agents, but these major players going to different teams doesn't guarentee a championship and it's almost as if every year that's the direction the Leafs go. .........That means no more trading away picks for over the hill guys, and drafting guys to fit into a certain spot with the team, 12 Snipers and 6 Stay at home defenceman will not win it all, there needs to be a safe balance and if they draft towards that formula, they will succeed.
Yep. It gets tiring to have the Leafs trade away their up and coming (good) players for has beens, never has beens, never will be's, or one step from retirment players. They need to keep some of that youth to build a strong team. I wish they would start building from within. This would be a good time to do that.
As long as we don't have to wait 84 years for another championship, build the team and get it done.
I hope not!! I won't be alive 84 years from now. I won't be alive even 50 years from now. I want to see the Leafs win the Cup before I go to that big hockey game in the sky.
Leafs_Pam
4-18-05, 5:58 PM
In Coli's time in the NHL in pre-season or his short stint in the regular season, he's looked great. It's baffled me that he hasn't been in the NHL for 2 years already. .......Pat always took his veterans over his youngsters no matter how good the kids were. Take Matt Stajan last year, he deserved to be in the line up every night.
Living in California, I haven't had the advantage of seeing the Baby Leafs but twice, but I did see Carlo and Matt when they played the games in Toronto. I totally agree with you. I was all over Quinn for not playing Stajan more. Quinn has always favored his has been veterans over our youth. Carlo also looked pretty good to me when I saw him.
Last year Wellwood couldn't skate period. His skating this year has improved dramatically. Skating can improve, as Wellwood has shown. There is no reason why he can't continue improving. He has good enough speed now. He's just like Adam Oates. Adam Oates was no dynamo of a skater either. Something Wellwood has that neither Comrie or Briere have is grit.
From what I have read about Wellwood, he has improved 100% over last season. If he continues improving, and if he can make the AHL to NHL transition without losing what he gained, he will be good in the NHL.
Remember back in the 2000/2001 season when the Oilers were talking about pulling the Baby Oilers (Bulldogs) out of Hamilton? Dec 29th and Dec 31st, 2000, St. John's Leafs were in Hamilton to play the Bulldogs. I would go to Bulldogs games when I was in Toronto on the nights the Leafs didn't play. Since I don't have AHL out here, I had the Bulldogs as my home team. When I saw St. John's was going to be in Hamilton for those two games, I bought tickets and flew up special for those two games (the Leafs were on the Road that week). Since St. John's was our future, I wanted a chance to see some of our future (Bobby House and Mike Minard were on that team). Since the Oilers were thinking about pulling the team out of Hamilton, I thought it might be my only chance to see St. John's. That turned out to be right, but not the way I thought it would be. BTW, Alyn McCauley was on that St. John's team. He was #12. I was in Row 1, Centre Ice, directly behind the St. John's Bench. :D
leaferfan87
4-20-05, 11:53 AM
I think we are pretty set down the middle with Wellwood, Stajan, Steen and Sundin and at defense we have Colaiacovo, Harrison, White, McCabe, Pilar among others and at goal we have Tellqivst. It is the wings I am concerned about as most of our core wingers Nolan, Roberts, Mogilny don't have much left. That will be our biggest concern in the future in my opinion.
Leafs_Fa_Life
4-25-05, 7:51 PM
Firstly to John, where did you hear Telly is the best goaltender to come out of Sweden? Can I see a link? IMO Henrik Lundqvist has as much potential as Telly, if not more.
As for the Leafs rebuilding, I highly doubt it'll happen. An infusion of youth will come once the league starts up again with Steen, Stajan, Carlo, Poni, Nik, and Telly all on the team. However, the Leafs will also have Sundin, Nolan, McCabe, Kaberle, Tucker, Klee, Belfour, and they'll probably add one or two cheap UFAs like Lindros or Allison. So they'll still be a 7th or 8th place team IMO if Eddie's back holds up.
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