CBC petition

[Max Power]

I know this issue has been beaten to death and I know many leaf fans get sick of being the target of the hockey world?s frustration but...
If any of you are interested in signing this petition which targets CBC?s false mandate, monopolizing of hockey and the whole Boom Boom issue please read and sign.
Most likely pointless but mehhh

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/cbcforall

[Madferret]

Thanks Maxy I'm on it..the occupation must end!

[Newfie John]

lol has an internet petition ever worked? I find the whole Boom Boom ordeal kind of funny since most hab fans hated the guy when he played because he took the spotlight(and scoring race) away from Rocket Richard.

Until there is some type of major shift though, the Leafs will still have the majority of the National games, and rightfully so. That said, I have no problem with other team's regions having their teams shown. From what I've heard though its not even worth CBC's money to try.

[charlio lemieux]

:no: :no: :no: :rolleyes: :D



Some good news....
HNIC adds Ottawa games


CBC's Hockey Night in Canada has added two Ottawa Senators games to their Saturday broadcast schedule. Ottawa's home games on April 1 against the Washington Capitals and April 8 against the Buffalo Sabres will be shown in the Ottawa region. However the games will remain at their current 7:30 p.m. starts. HNIC will show the first half hour of the Toronto Maple Leafs' games on both of those nights from 7 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. and cut away when they drop the puck at Scotiabank Place.

[Madferret]

Until there is some type of major shift though, the Leafs will still have the majority of the National games, and rightfully so. That said, I have no problem with other team's regions having their teams shown. From what I've heard though its not even worth CBC's money to try.

In all honesty when has the CBC even given the other CDN teams a chance John? I'm not talking about a few pity games being televised locally either or a playoff series because the Leafs are out. Think about it.

[Newfie John]

In all honesty when has the CBC even given the other CDN teams a chance John? I'm not talking about a few pity games being televised locally either or a playoff series because the Leafs are out. Think about it.

Well, the Montreal Canadiens used to be aired nationally every night on HNIC at one time, then the shift changed to the Maple Leafs.

Not only that, but they have surveys and other things to determine what their market is. They're a huge industry, they're not just doing this because there is a leaf fan in the office at the top floor.

[a4l]

lol has an internet petition ever worked? I find the whole Boom Boom ordeal kind of funny since most hab fans hated the guy when he played because he took the spotlight(and scoring race) away from Rocket Richard.

That happened when Richard was suspended. Geoffrion was NOT hated for taking the spotlight away from Richard, they were upset because of the suspension. Boomer was always a respected player and I think CBC was wrong not to show the tribute. Luckily I was at a place where they had it on one of their large screen tv's.

Until there is some type of major shift though, the Leafs will still have the majority of the National games, and rightfully so. That said, I have no problem with other team's regions having their teams shown. From what I've heard though its not even worth CBC's money to try.

You have heard wrong. Not everybody is a Laffs fan. It's time for other eastern Canadian teams to have their games shown. I would much rather watch Montreal or Ottawa than a never ending bunch of Laffs games.

[Madferret]

Well, the Montreal Canadiens used to be aired nationally every night on HNIC at one time, then the shift changed to the Maple Leafs.

Not only that, but they have surveys and other things to determine what their market is. They're a huge industry, they're not just doing this because there is a leaf fan in the office at the top floor.

That's not what I'm saying. How long ago was the Habs the main draw on HNIC. The Habs have every game still played on HNIC or RDS so that's not even comparable.
The Leafs have had the luxury of being almost exclusively played on HNIC for well over 10 years now, you don't think that plays into the numbers that Leaf fans try to use as a debate? Give Edmonton / Ottawa / Vancouver / Clagary 10 years as the HNIC headliner and then we'll see where the 'numbers' are.

[Max Power]

Well I'm glad I put this in the trash section because even after I make it clear that I sympathize with leaf fans having to hear this over and over we still get the "we are superior" BS rhetoric.
I hate this childish emoticon but I just don?t know what else to say :rolleyes:

[Newfie John]

That's not what I'm saying. How long ago was the Habs the main draw on HNIC. The Habs have every game still played on HNIC or RDS so that's not even comparable.
The Leafs have had the luxury of being almost exclusively played on HNIC for well over 10 years now, you don't think that plays into the numbers that Leaf fans try to use as a debate? Give Edmonton / Ottawa / Vancouver / Clagary 10 years as the HNIC headliner and then we'll see where the 'numbers' are.

That would be pointless though.

[Newfie John]

Well I'm glad I put this in the trash section because even after I make it clear that I sympathize with leaf fans having to hear this over and over we still get the "we are superior" BS rhetoric.
I hate this childish emoticon but I just don?t know what else to say :rolleyes:

Well I wouldn't call that post the pinacle of maturity either.

I'm sorry I'm telling you what you don't want to hear, but its just the way it is.

[Madferret]

leaf fans having to hear this over and over we still get the "we are superior" BS rhetoric.

Why are you surprised?

[Madferret]

That would be pointless though.

How is that pointless?

[Newfie John]

How is that pointless?

If I'm hearing what you're saying correctly, you're saying that one of the other teams should get the headline for the next 10 years to see where the numbers lie. There are multiple reasons why that is pointless.

1) CBC has people to find out these numbers through things such as surveys, etc.

2) Say if Edmonton is picked, you please the Oil fans, you piss off the leaf fans(most fans in the country) while the other fans are still mad. Doesn't make any sense.

[charlio lemieux]

:no: :no: :no: :rolleyes: :D



:nod: :nod: :nod:


:snore: :snore: :snore: :snore: :snore: :laughing:

[Max Power]

Well I wouldn't call that post the pinacle of maturity either.

I'm sorry I'm telling you what you don't want to hear, but its just the way it is.

Please tell me where the trash talking starts in this thread NJ?
All I did was point out a petition for those who are interested.

Other then that I've already argued what CBC's mandate is and how it is breaking its own mandate with its actions. As a public broadcast station it is responsible to show equal Canadian broadcasting period. You are the one that can't handle this truth as every time the subject comes up you go off like Chinese firecracker with your irrelevant numbers argument.

I may complain about bias sportsnet and TSN but in the end if you tell me it's a numbers thing then you would be right because it's a private broadcasting station. When it comes to CBC you?re anything but right.

Until CBC revokes it?s public title you are and will be 100% wrong and I will not waste my time arguing it

[Newfie John]

Please tell me where the trash talking starts in this thread NJ?
All I did was point out a petition for those who are interested.

Other then that I've already argued what CBC's mandate is and how it is breaking its own mandate with its actions. As a public broadcast station it is responsible to show equal Canadian broadcasting period. You are the one that can't handle this truth as every time the subject comes up you go off like Chinese firecracker with your irrelevant numbers argument.

I may complain about bias sportsnet and TSN but in the end if you tell me it's a numbers thing then you would be right because it's a private broadcasting station. When it comes to CBC you’re anything but right.

Until CBC revokes it’s public title you are and will be 100% wrong and I will not waste my time arguing it

I understand what you're saying. CBC is not public. I get it. Because of that they have to satisfy the majority. The leaf fans are the majority, are they not?

Now I know about the regional possibilities. There's no conspiracy here. The best reason I can think of is that they want to keep the hockey fan watching HNIC. What I mean by the "hockey fan" is the person who doesn't necessarily go for the leafs, but watch any game thats on TV anyway. If they give their competition those games, they could lose some of those "hockey fans". While I understand it isn't a private business, they're still a business and they stilll want to maximize their profits. Also, while the government is helping them pay the bills, that doesn't mean they have to dish over some money to TSN. That doesn't really make sense when you think about it.

Now, I'm sure if TSN and RSN wanted to pay enough to buy those rights, CBC would give it to them. But they may not find it to be worth it, just as CBC doesn't. Even though they are not public, that doesn't mean that they should help their competition in business. If it didn't cost too much money, I'd like to see CBC with some sort of system like ESPN. Kind of like CBC 1, CBC 2... and show all the games nationally. But I'm not sure of the possibility of that.

[a4l]

:nod: :nod: :nod:


:snore: :snore: :snore: :snore: :snore: :laughing:

My sentiments exactly. Why is it that Leafs fans think that there are no other teamns in the east and that everybody is a laffs fan?


BTW NJ CBC is public as it is funded by our tax dollars and is not privately owned. :laughing:

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

2) Say if Edmonton is picked, you please the Oil fans, you piss off the leaf fans(most fans in the country) while the other fans are still mad. Doesn't make any sense.

Not really. There are Leaf fans all over the country, but those numbers are dwindling. You aren't gonna go out to Alberta anymore and find more Leafs fans than Flame or Oiler fans. For the most part, us Leafers are all located in S. Ontario. So if HNIC decided to do local broadcasts for the Leafs on some weekends and give the Sens a few national broadcasts I doubt the ratings would suffer. You'd still have the 10 million people in S. Ontario (the Leafs main market) watching Toronto, while the rest of the country got to see a different team. I doubt you'd piss off any Leaf fans. You could argue that it's cheaper for the CBC to just have one broadcast because the expenses are lower, but the CBC is a publically funded company so that should be irrelevant. As long all Canadians are paying taxes to support the station, there should be equal national coverage of all six teams.

[Newfie John]

Not really. There are Leaf fans all over the country, but those numbers are dwindling. You aren't gonna go out to Alberta anymore and find more Leafs fans than Flame or Oiler fans. For the most part, us Leafers are all located in S. Ontario. So if HNIC decided to do local broadcasts for the Leafs on some weekends and give the Sens a few national broadcasts I doubt the ratings would suffer. You'd still have the 10 million people in S. Ontario (the Leafs main market) watching Toronto, while the rest of the country got to see a different team. I doubt you'd piss off any Leaf fans. You could argue that it's cheaper for the CBC to just have one broadcast because the expenses are lower, but the CBC is a publically funded company so that should be irrelevant. As long all Canadians are paying taxes to support the station, there should be equal national coverage of all six teams.

Try saying that in Newfoundland. It's pretty much all leaf fans. I have family in Nova Scotia, and its the same there. Now I don't personally know this for every province but when the leafs go to Vancouver or Edmonton and you hear "Go Leafs Go" you know something is up. How many times has that happened for the Oilers? If thats not proof enough for you, think about the research CBC puts into this so that they are not only maximizing their profits, but satisfying the majority.

[Newfie John]

My sentiments exactly. Why is it that Leafs fans think that there are no other teamns in the east and that everybody is a laffs fan?


BTW NJ CBC is public as it is funded by our tax dollars and is not privately owned. :laughing:

...Have you been reading the posts in this thread at all?

[Madferret]

If I'm hearing what you're saying correctly, you're saying that one of the other teams should get the headline for the next 10 years to see where the numbers lie. There are multiple reasons why that is pointless.

1) CBC has people to find out these numbers through things such as surveys, etc.

2) Say if Edmonton is picked, you please the Oil fans, you piss off the leaf fans(most fans in the country) while the other fans are still mad. Doesn't make any sense.

Name me another way of finding out which CDN team is best suited for the HNIC main draw by giving every CDN team a fair shake at it.

[a4l]

I read every single word of the thread NJ. I happen to think that the laffs have had special treatment for too long and it's time for showing the other eastern teams on English TV. On the other hand my French has improved a lot from watching the Montreal games.

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

Try saying that in Newfoundland. It's pretty much all leaf fans. I have family in Nova Scotia, and its the same there. Now I don't personally know this for every province but when the leafs go to Vancouver or Edmonton and you hear "Go Leafs Go" you know something is up. How many times has that happened for the Oilers? If thats not proof enough for you, think about the research CBC puts into this so that they are not only maximizing their profits, but satisfying the majority.

I'm sure there's a good amount of Habs fans out East too.

As for your other point, if the Leafs only come out West once a year then those three games will be the ones that the Leaf fans out there are most likely to go to.

I'm sure PDO will tell you that Oiler fans FAR outnumber Leaf fans in Edmonton.

[Max Power]

I understand what you're saying. CBC is not public. I get it. Because of that they have to satisfy the majority. The leaf fans are the majority, are they not?

Incorrect, in their mandate they specifically says
"To be national, one must first be regional; to truly serve the majority, one must sustain the minority"
and
"So who can afford to take programming risks? Public broadcasters can, because they have the flexibility to take programming risks that private broadcasters cannot."



I understand what you're saying. CBC is not public. I get it. Because of that they have to satisfy the majority. The leaf fans are the majority, are they not?

Now I know about the regional possibilities. There's no conspiracy here. The best reason I can think of is that they want to keep the hockey fan watching HNIC. What I mean by the "hockey fan" is the person who doesn't necessarily go for the leafs, but watch any game thats on TV anyway. If they give their competition those games, they could lose some of those "hockey fans". While I understand it isn't a private business, they're still a business and they stilll want to maximize their profits. Also, while the government is helping them pay the bills, that doesn't mean they have to dish over some money to TSN. That doesn't really make sense when you think about it.

Now, I'm sure if TSN and RSN wanted to pay enough to buy those rights, CBC would give it to them. But they may not find it to be worth it, just as CBC doesn't. Even though they are not public, that doesn't mean that they should help their competition in business. If it didn't cost too much money, I'd like to see CBC with some sort of system like ESPN. Kind of like CBC 1, CBC 2... and show all the games nationally. But I'm not sure of the possibility of that.

Revert to what I said above

Not only that but if CBC wanted to do a local broadcast only I'm sure they could steal feeds from American stations and televise them here increasing their viewers while limiting their cost.

[Newfie John]

I'm sure there's a good amount of Habs fans out East too.

You're right, and they're shown nationally on RDS.

As for your other point, if the Leafs only come out West once a year then those three games will be the ones that the Leaf fans out there are most likely to go to.

I'm sure PDO will tell you that Oiler fans FAR outnumber Leaf fans in Edmonton.

I don't doubt that, but we're thinking on a national scale here. Since the regional possibility is for whatever reason impossible, the leafs are shown nationally, to please the majority.

[Max Power]

You're right, and they're shown nationally on RDS.




I don't think RDS is National in standard cable
Maybe someone in central or western Canada can confirm that

[Newfie John]

Incorrect, in their mandate they specifically says
"To be national, one must first be regional; to truly serve the majority, one must sustain the minority"
and
"So who can afford to take programming risks? Public broadcasters can, because they have the flexibility to take programming risks that private broadcasters cannot."




Revert to what I said above

Not only that but if CBC wanted to do a local broadcast only I'm sure they could steal feeds from American stations and televise them here increasing their viewers while limiting their cost.

Ok, but what if CBC loses money or faces some sort of deficit if they do this regional coverage? I mean there must be something keeping them from doing it if it is in their mandate. I guess they're losing money by doing it, why else?

If they are losing money by doing that, I'm sure thats why the government lets them operate the way they are now. This has been argued since I was a hockey fan, and it has yet to change. There must be a reason for it. I'm not going to sit here and say I have all the answers, because I don't. I will try and take a look at it rationally though and attempt to figure out why. Because like I said, there must be a reason. This isn't a conspiracy.

Do you think this is a some sort of large scale conspiracy?:laughing:

[Newfie John]

I don't think RDS is National in standard cable
Maybe someone in central or western Canada can confirm that

They are here.. I just assumed.

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

Ok, but what if CBC loses money or faces some sort of deficit if they do this regional coverage? I mean there must be something keeping them from doing it if it is in their mandate. I guess they're losing money by doing it, why else?

If they are losing money by doing that, I'm sure thats why the government lets them operate the way they are now. This has been argued since I was a hockey fan, and it has yet to change. There must be a reason for it. I'm not going to sit here and say I have all the answers, because I don't. I will try and take a look at it rationally though and attempt to figure out why. Because like I said, there must be a reason. This isn't a conspiracy.

If they were a private enterprise then that would be fine, but the CBC should put the needs of all Canadians ahead of maximizing profit.

Do you think this is a some sort of large scale conspiracy?:laughing:

Wouldn't be the first time the media tried to control what we watch.

[Newfie John]

If they were a private enterprise then that would be fine, but the CBC should put the needs of all Canadians ahead of maximizing profit.



Wouldn't be the first time the media tried to control what we watch.

This is the governments money here. If the CBC wasn't using it the way they're supposed to this would have been taken care of long ago. Which begs the question, what's wrong?

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

This is the governments money here. If the CBC wasn't using it the way they're supposed to this would have been taken care of long ago. Which begs the question, what's wrong?

There's six Canadian teams, yet one gets shown exclusively on HNIC. The CBC should give Ottawa and Montreal some national broadcasts too, or sell the rights to the games to TSN so they can broadcast the games for other fans to see. It's no fair that CBC has the rights to all Canadian teams, but shove the Leafs down most of the country's throat.

[Max Power]

Ok, but what if CBC loses money or faces some sort of deficit if they do this regional coverage? I mean there must be something keeping them from doing it if it is in their mandate. I guess they're losing money by doing it, why else?

If they are losing money by doing that, I'm sure thats why the government lets them operate the way they are now. This has been argued since I was a hockey fan, and it has yet to change. There must be a reason for it. I'm not going to sit here and say I have all the answers, because I don't. I will try and take a look at it rationally though and attempt to figure out why. Because like I said, there must be a reason. This isn't a conspiracy.

Do you think this is a some sort of large scale conspiracy?:laughing:

Now we're just getting into a bunch of assumptions and bias ones at that too. One thing I do know is if Rogers or TSN who are both private can afford to do local and national broadcast of the Sens year after year then CBC can too.
Not only that but CBC has been doing local Sens games occasionally for years.
Either way we can start the assumption game but none of them would be educated on either our parts

[Newfie John]

There's six Canadian teams, yet one gets shown exclusively on HNIC. The CBC should give Ottawa and Montreal some national broadcasts too, or sell the rights to the games to TSN so they can broadcast the games for other fans to see. It's no fair that CBC has the rights to all Canadian teams, but shove the Leafs down most of the country's throat.

That doesn't satisfy the majority though. If you gave the Sens a few National games here and there they still wouldn't be satisfied. In the process you're pissing off the leaf fans who are the majority. IMO, if you leave things the way they are, with more regional broadcasts for the other teams, it'd be the best way it could possibly be. Agree or disagree?

[a4l]

I'm not convinced that the laffs fans are in the majority in Canada, or even South East Ontario. On top of that I'm not sure that all Laffs fans will be pissed off if they don't see their team every week.

[Madferret]

I'm not convinced that the laffs fans are in the majority in Canada, or even South East Ontario. On top of that I'm not sure that all Laffs fans will be pissed off if they don't see their team every week.

I'm about 100% positive there are more non Leaf fans in Canada then there are Leaf fans.

[PDO]

That said, I have no problem with other team's regions having their teams shown. From what I've heard though its not even worth CBC's money to try.

Sorry if this has been dealt with...

If that's true, then why do they hold onto these rights so dearly? Clearly they'd have no qualms selling the rights off to TSN, Sportsnet, etc if they're not using them at all and gain nothing by having them.

[PDO]

I'm about 100% positive there are more non Leaf fans in Canada then there are Leaf fans.

Yup. Lets get some proportional representation here :nod:

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

That doesn't satisfy the majority though. If you gave the Sens a few National games here and there they still wouldn't be satisfied. In the process you're pissing off the leaf fans who are the majority. IMO, if you leave things the way they are, with more regional broadcasts for the other teams, it'd be the best way it could possibly be. Agree or disagree?

Disagree. I doubt Sens fans wouldn't be satisfied. They'd probably be fine with the fact that there's a rotation of Eastern teams in the national spotlight, just like with the Western teams (am I right Sens fans?). As for Leaf fans being pissed off, the majority of Leaf fans are located in S. Ontario, so most Leaf fans would still get the Leafs broadcast. Meanwhile the rest of the country (the majority aren't Leaf fans) can see something other the Leafs for a change. It works well enough for FOX and CBS with the NFL on Sundays. Several local broadcasts and usually one game will be featured over the rest.

[Amoroq]

There is something in the last paragraph of that petition that makes no sense what so ever.

I think it is time that the CBC abandons it's current philosophy with regards to Hockey Night in Canada and start giving the rest of Canadians what we pay for from this Crown Corporation and that is a truly national Public Broadcaster. We want the CBC to cater to all Canadians and give us what we rightly deserve and not just what the ratings tell them. After all the CBC should not be driven by ratings but what is in the best interest of the countryThey have to worry about ratings, if they didn't and weren't making a profit then there is no way the Crown would shell out the dollars required to purchase the rights. Without hockey the CBC would disapear as it woldn't be able to produce other quality TV like DaVincis Inquest, The Royal Canadian Airfarce, This hour has 22 minutes, as well as a list of other fine Canadian programing. HNIC is the heart and soul of the CBC, and like it or not it has to care about ratings. Furthermore, if the CBC finds that it needs to show certain games to make a profit, its very possible that another carrier could end up doing the very same thing.

All that being said, I'm still a leaf fan and no mater the result of this, I'll still get to see them play as often as I do now. I still might sign this thing, but make no mistake, the CBC has no other choice but to think about ratings, because without them, everything crumbles to the ground.

[Newfie John]

I'm about 100% positive there are more non Leaf fans in Canada then there are Leaf fans.

Well until all the other teams in Canada form one giant team then that fact is uesless.

[Newfie John]

Sorry if this has been dealt with...

If that's true, then why do they hold onto these rights so dearly? Clearly they'd have no qualms selling the rights off to TSN, Sportsnet, etc if they're not using them at all and gain nothing by having them.

While I don't know the answer to that 100%, I have speculated on it in this thread in a reply to Max.

[Newfie John]

Disagree. I doubt Sens fans wouldn't be satisfied. They'd probably be fine with the fact that there's a rotation of Eastern teams in the national spotlight, just like with the Western teams (am I right Sens fans?). As for Leaf fans being pissed off, the majority of Leaf fans are located in S. Ontario, so most Leaf fans would still get the Leafs broadcast. Meanwhile the rest of the country (the majority aren't Leaf fans) can see something other the Leafs for a change. It works well enough for FOX and CBS with the NFL on Sundays. Several local broadcasts and usually one game will be featured over the rest.

While most of leaf fans are in Southern Ontario, take the fans that aren't from there away from the leafs, and someone else has the most fans in Canada, without doubt.

[Man.Utd]

Try saying that in Newfoundland. It's pretty much all leaf fans. I have family in Nova Scotia, and its the same there. Now I don't personally know this for every province but when the leafs go to Vancouver or Edmonton and you hear "Go Leafs Go" you know something is up.

How often do the Leafs play out West. A few times a year. When they go West every Leaf fan will in the area will jump at the chance to get tickets. They'll literally camp out for those tickets. Why? It's their only chance in a year or so to see the Buds live.

But do you think local fans of Vancouver/Edmonton care about the match that much? Not really. It's a regular season contest, one of 82. The Leafs don't have a big rivalry with the Western teams, aren't a very competitive/fun team to watch this season, and the result is almost meaningless in the big picture. If those Bud fans are willing to pay an arm and a leg for those tickets - and they will be - those Western fans will let them and be in attendance for any of the other 41 home games that season. Most of which will be more crucial to the standings or entertaining to watch due to rivalries. The result is lots of Leafers showing up.

Toronto has a huge following anywhere in the country. But those chants you hear are decieving. No NHL city in Canada supports Toronto first and foremost. Or even 60-40. Aside from Toronto. ;)

Argue that it makes the most money to show them nationally if you want. But do you know what would make CBC even more money? Showing each market their own team, that'd get extra ratings out of the markets that don't want to be bothered to tune into the Leaf game. You can give the rest of Canada the blue and white (though even that should be rotated) but at least let each city see their team. But CBC can't even do that. It may cost more to air more broadcasts, but the tax dollars coming from big Canadian cities like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and Montreal - all having an NHL franchise - would more than cover the difference.

[Newfie John]

How often do the Leafs play out West. A few times a year. When they go West every Leaf fan will in the area will jump at the chance to get tickets. They'll literally camp out for those tickets. Why? It's their only chance in a year or so to see the Buds live.

I don't doubt that Andy. The fact remains though, it doesn't happen for any other team. It just further proves my point that there are more leaf fans out there then any other team except for the home team.

But do you think local fans of Vancouver/Edmonton care about the match that much? Not really. It's a regular season contest, one of 82. The Leafs don't have a big rivalry with the Western teams, aren't a very competitive/fun team to watch this season, and the result is almost meaningless in the big picture. If those Bud fans are willing to pay an arm and a leg for those tickets - and they will be - those Western fans will let them and be in attendance for any of the other 41 home games that season. Most of which will be more crucial to the standings or entertaining to watch due to rivalries. The result is lots of Leafers showing up.

Like I said, it still doesn't happen with any other team. If it were so close with leafers and other teams in Canada, why don't you hear "Go Sens Go" at the Saddledome?

Toronto has a huge following anywhere in the country. But those chants you hear are decieving. No NHL city in Canada supports Toronto first and foremost. Or even 60-40. Aside from Toronto. ;)

I'm not saying that leaf fans outnumber the home team fans in other cities, I'm saying that they outrank any other team except the home team.

Argue that it makes the most money to show them nationally if you want. But do you know what would make CBC even more money? Showing each market their own team, that'd get extra ratings out of the markets that don't want to be bothered to tune into the Leaf game.

Since CBC is so successful I imagine they would have thought of that. Since its not happening that leads me to believe it won't effect their bottomline that much. It costs a lot of money to split up the country like that and show different games to different parts of the country.

You can give the rest of Canada the blue and white (though even that should be rotated) but at least let each city see their team. But CBC can't even do that. It may cost more to air more broadcasts, but the tax dollars coming from big Canadian cities like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and Montreal - all having an NHL franchise - would more than cover the difference.

Apparently not enough tax dollars. Otherwise, rest assured it would be happening.

[J.R.]

Only five more Saturdays to suffer through with the Loafs.

http://www.mapleleafs.com/assets/steen_golf_351.jpg

Alexander Steen gets ready for golf season starting April 19th.

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

Only five more Saturdays to suffer through with the Loafs.

Well college bball should get you through the next three:thumb:

[a4l]

Only five more Saturdays to suffer through with the Loafs.

I can't wait!!! :laughing::boogie::boogie:

[charlio lemieux]

Sounds like a bunch of Crosby's in here! :wicked: :stir: :D

What's everyone going to do when Toronto makes the playoffs and Ottawa gets swept by Montreal first round? :wicked: :stir: :D

[a4l]

Sounds like a bunch of Crosby's in here! :wicked: :stir: :D

What's everyone going to do when Toronto makes the playoffs and Ottawa gets swept by Montreal first round? :wicked: :stir: :D

I will laff especially when les Canadiens turn around and cream the laffs in 4 straight. :rollover: :boogie:

[Max Power]

Disagree. I doubt Sens fans wouldn't be satisfied. They'd probably be fine with the fact that there's a rotation of Eastern teams in the national spotlight, just like with the Western teams (am I right Sens fans?). As for Leaf fans being pissed off, the majority of Leaf fans are located in S. Ontario, so most Leaf fans would still get the Leafs broadcast. Meanwhile the rest of the country (the majority aren't Leaf fans) can see something other the Leafs for a change. It works well enough for FOX and CBS with the NFL on Sundays. Several local broadcasts and usually one game will be featured over the rest.

I agree
I would think most Sens fans would be happy with a local broadcast. I'm sure western fans would prefer to see a mix of games and I have trouble believing ratings would be much affected. For example Toronto playing Florida on a Saturday or Sens playing Philly, what game would be more interesting to watch for the casual hockey fan or for sports bars to tune into? The fact is none of us including CBC can say what the ratings would be like because it's never been done. The largest percentage of leaf fans are in southern Ontario so CBC would still get their ratings while providing the rest of Canada a variety which is in their PUBLIC mandate.
I don't buy for one second this losing money BS some leaf fans speculate. Call it conspiracy but CBC hockey operations are based in TO and the preference is there. Yes they would need to spend more money to give a better variety but no there is no way they would lose money. A larger percentage of Canadians tune into HNIC because it is HNIC and its part of our culture. The tune is engraved in our heads as Canadian.
CBC is a public broadcast station and what is fundamentally wrong with this is the fact they don't want to change the Leaf CBC era and they don't want to spend more money and dare relinquish a percentage of their profits (if they even would) while actually applying their mandate.

[charlio lemieux]

I guess no one realizes HNIC is largely funded by privately generated revenue.:shrug:

May 16, 2000

CBC Fact Sheet
Cost of CBC to Canadians

CBC's Operating Parliamentary Appropriation: approximately $750 M funds 2 national television networks, 4 national radio networks operating coast-to-coast-to-coast in 2 official languages and eight aboriginal languages
$250 M supports 4 commercial free radio networks
$500 M supports 2 national television networks, including 25 regional stations and national distribution system
$200 M supports French Television, $300 M supports English Television
Total appropriation represents cost to each Canadian of approximately 7 cents per day
Total revenues stable or declining
Increasing dependency on advertising revenues
Competition and convergence are decreasing audiences for all conventional broadcasters
Advertising revenues will decline as a result
Total Cost of CBC Television: $530 M

This pays for: network programming; 17 regional stations; 11 domestic bureaus and foreign correspondents around the world; the world's longest television distribution system; microwave, land lines and nearly 700 transmitters; plus buildings and production facilities, management and administration.
This does NOT include the cost of CBC Newsworld which is funded separately through subscriber and advertising revenue.
$300M (approx. 60%) in parliamentary appropriation, $230M (approx. 40%) in self-generated revenue, largely from advertising.
40% of CBC Television's budget is dependent on revenue earned.
CBC Television costs each Canadian less than 3 cents per day.
90% Canadian content in prime time; 80% across full day

Comparison to BBC

Public funding approximately $7.5 billion (CDN)
Radio and Television services in one language
A distribution and transmission system serving a land mass approximately 60% the size of Newfoundland

Canadians' Opinions of the CBC: Pollary, May 1999

7 out of 10 of Canadians believe CBC's current level of funding is just about right or too little
9 out of 10 Canadians believe that having a public broadcaster that receives federal funding is important
7 out of 10 Canadians believe that CBC Television does the best job of reflecting Canadian culture and Canadian values.



CBC will share pain if Maple Leafs miss playoffs
Ad slump would follow faltering Olympics ratings
Barbara Shecter, with files from Garry Marr and Theresa Tedesco
Financial Post
Thursday, March 09, 2006

On the heels of disappointing ratings for the Olympics in Turin, the CBC is bracing for another hit to viewership and advertising revenue as the chances of the Toronto Maple Leafs making the NHL playoffs diminish.

"If they're out of the race, the likelihood is there'll be some modest decline" in ratings even before the playoffs begin, said Doug Checkeris, chief executive of The Media Company, which places TV advertising on behalf of clients. "People will start to lose interest."

The CBC was already forced to compensate advertisers with free ads this year because Olympic broadcasts from Italy were watched by far fewer viewers than anticipated.

"The Leafs not making the playoffs would also be disappointing," Mr. Checkeris said.

Viewership is directly related to which teams are in the playoffs, he said, and although Canada's other teams are doing well this year, the Leafs are the "big killer."

Historically, the Leafs have had a big impact on ratings.

In 2003, the third round of the playoffs -- without the Leafs -- drew only half the television audience of the previous year when the Leafs played.

However, viewership of the most recent playoffs -- in 2004, before the year-long lockout -- was lifted by a strong showing from the Calgary Flames.

The Leafs are a long shot to make the playoffs this year, sitting in tenth place in the Eastern Conference of the National Hockey League, where only the top eight teams make the playoffs.

The team has set a goal of winning 16 of their remaining 21 games, a pace they have been unable to demonstrate so far this season. Key player Eric Lindros returned briefly but is now out for the rest of the season due to an injury.

The Leafs had been widely expected to make the playoffs, having done so every year since the 1998-1999 season. With a payroll near the maximum allowed under the NHL labour agreement, few doubted the team was playoff bound.

Today is the NHL trade deadline, and it is widely believed that if the Leafs opt to "clean house" and trade some star players, the team can say goodbye to the Stanley Cup this year.

Ninety-two percent of votes cast in a poll by radio station The Fan 590 yesterday were in favour of the housecleaning route.

A stellar hockey season would have been a shot in the arm for the CBC, because viewing of the public broadcaster's Winter Olympics coverage was down substantially from the 2002 Games in Salt Lake City.

Prime-time Olympic broadcasts barely made it into the top-20 most watched shows in the country.

As a result, the CBC was forced to compensate advertisers for the low prime-time viewership by giving them free advertising spots.

Caroline Gianias, senior vice-president and director of broadcast at media planning agency Carat Canada, said advertisers can also expect to be compensated with free commercials if the hockey playoffs draw lower-than-expected audiences.

"If it doesn't perform, then the CBC will owe them audience, and the CBC is very good at living up to its commitments," she said, adding that big national beer and telecommunications companies buy their hockey spots before the first game is played.

"The bigger impact hit to the CBC will be in the short-term business," she said.

The CBC generally is able to guarantee advertising ratings at two to 2.5-million viewers for the Leafs, and roughly one million for Ottawa, said an industry source.

The network can usually count on a minimum of $25,000 for a 30-second advertising slot during the first two playoff rounds if the Leafs are being televised, he added.

That figure is would be expected to double for the third and fourth rounds and would go through the roof if the Leafs made it to the Stanley Cup finals, he said.

It's hard to put a figure on it because the Leafs haven't been to the final since 1967, the last time it won the Cup.

Jay Walsh, a spokesman for the network, said it is premature for the public broadcaster to discuss its hockey strategy, or the impact a Leaf-free playoff would have.

Mr. Checkeris said that it's possible the public broadcaster did not plan for a playoff including the Leafs, even though the streak of Leafs action at playoff time has endured since the late 1990s.

"I think they take fairly conservative estimates to start with because there [are] no guarantees," he said.

If you want your petition to come to fruition, you will have to ask your MP to vote for more federal funding for the CBC, specifically for a second 7:00pm HNIC game. As it stands right now to generate the money needed, the CBC has to listen to what the advertisers want. Good Luck.

[Newfie John]

Great post Charlio.

[Madferret]

Putting pro Leaf rhetoric in bold doesn't sell anyone except Leaf fans Charlio..

[Amoroq]

Perhaps this would be the perfect time for rival network CTV and the W5 news people to launch an in depth investigation into this far reaching conspiracy??

[Max Power]

Circles and circles no one ever addresses the point

First off with the leafs out of the playoffs sure CBC ratings will go down and sure in turn their advertising $$ might too but it still doesn?t prove a damn thing and it has nothing to do with my argument. It's regular season we're talking about and 10 million southern Ontarians will still have the leafs to watch every Sat night so the ratings will not change like you try to spin with your article.

BTW thanks for pointing out how leaf fans are not hockey fans based on that article =]

Second the government contribution comparison is irrelevant because if private broadcasters can make money off national hockey feeds that aren't the Leafs then THE PUBLIC FUNDED CBC can too

If it cost sooooo much to televise games that only f*&^ing Toronto can make money then we?d never see Canadian playoffs on TV. I guess every other network runs on a loss

These articles and arguments are nothing but smoke screens on the issues I've pointed out and i won't waste another second arguing it. The sad part is that the petty that wasted hours and spends so much time trying to justify TO having greater national coverage is something I?ll never understand. Why does it affect and upset you so much? Your team gets hours and hours of more coverage then anybody else on this board but you guys are hell bent of having anybody else get any national attention. It?s almost like it offends you?

NJ please don't copy this pointless trash into other boards because I'm tiered of arguing with you guys on a subject that affects none of you.

[Amoroq]

With all due respect Max I believe the question has been addressed, its just not an answer you want to accept. Yes the CBC is funded with our money but even a government funded operation has a bottom line.

On the other hand I don't blame you one bit, I know I would be as pissed off if I couldn't get coverage of my team, and you are right this won't affect me as no matter the outcome I'll still be able to watch the leafs play. It is why I decided to sign the thing.

[Max Power]

With all due respect Max I believe the question has been addressed, its just not an answer you want to accept. Yes the CBC is funded with our money but even a government funded operation has a bottom line. .

How so?
I'd love to hear how the playoffs have anything to do with my argument or even more how private none government funded stations can make money and keep brodcasting Sens or Hab games year after year but CTV would run at a loss?
I'm not trying to be an ass but please tell me how those articles addressed my point


On the other hand I don't blame you one bit, I know I would be as pissed off if I couldn't get coverage of my team, and you are right this won't affect me as no matter the outcome I'll still be able to watch the leafs play. It is why I decided to sign the thing.

Thanks and I don't really give a rats ass about the petition it's more just perplexing why some TO fans want to argue it like if it's completly wrong or a personal attack? =]

[charlio lemieux]

Putting pro Leaf rhetoric in bold doesn't sell anyone except Leaf fans Charlio..

If all you saw was Leaf rhetoric then you didn't even read all of the highlighted parts. Here I thought I was saving people from having to read the whole article, and I'm selling "Leafs Rhetoric". Try not to take it so personally.

How so?
I'd love to hear how the playoffs have anything to do with my argument or even more how private none government funded stations can make money and keep brodcasting Sens or Hab games year after year but CTV would run at a loss?
I'm not trying to be an ass but please tell me how those articles addressed my point

Those articles were to show that CBC is not entirely publicly funded, that making money is a big part of how decisions get made, and that when it comes to making the money in question, there is no better revenue generater than the Toronto Maple Leafs on Hockey Night in Canada. That is what the accountants for the CBC and the Advertising agencies say, and that is what the articles showed.

Thanks and I don't really give a rats ass about the petition it's more just perplexing why some TO fans want to argue it like if it's completly wrong or a personal attack?

Not personal, just business. We're just trying to help you understand that.

[Max Power]

Not personal, just business. We're just trying to help you understand that.

Patronizing does not make you right
I agree with you that leafs are the greatest revenue generator

my point is very simple and you can't address it
- CBC is Canada's public broadcaster that's own mandate is to provide equal broadcasting while taking risks because they are a public funded station. They are about the people.
- I agree with the article you provided and profits will go down if leafs are out because apparently a large % of leaf fans only watch the leafs even in the playoffs
- This issue is a regular season issue were CBC would still get their ratings because they would still have leaf broadcast in southern Ontario so you're article is irrelevant to this issue.
- Canadian private broadcasters have been doing national feeds of every other team and manage to make money. They CAN'T operate at a loss. How in the hell could CBC a public station not be able to operate like them?


The sad part is that CBC is supposed to provide equal broadcasting for the people but when it comes to the Sens they not only refuse to give us a regular local broadcast they also refuse to sell the rights so Canadians can see their hockey team.

[Newfie John]

CBC isn't entirely publicly funded. Only partly. They wouldn't get the money from the government in the first place if they weren't successful, and showing the Leafs on HNIC has brought success. I mean, the government isn't just throwing tax payers money away so a few fans from the other teams can see their team play.

[bluemeanie]

Well I signed the petition under a dozen different aliases and the TV guide still says Leafs hockey on CBC for the next?Century. So, in honour of my friends to the east and west, (not so much the north, and to the south they don't give a rat's ars about hockey anyways) I have decided to consume ONLY beer starting early today and not stoping until there is a ?proportional amount of hockey coverage for all Canadian team aired on CBC?, or until Monday morning... which ever comes first.

Happy Drunken Irish day ladies....

[Max Power]

Well I signed the petition under a dozen different aliases and the TV guide still says Leafs hockey on CBC for the next?Century. So, in honour of my friends to the east and west, (not so much the north, and to the south they don't give a rat's ars about hockey anyways) I have decided to consume ONLY beer starting early today and not stoping until there is a ?proportional amount of hockey coverage for all Canadian team aired on CBC?, or until Monday morning... which ever comes first.

Happy Drunken Irish day ladies....

You just go on that drunken strike and keep the insensitive meanie jerk leaf remarks to yourself. When I join you at 3 I?ll be telling you what I think of you and your operation in a good Irish fashion.
BTW check your mail... funny stuff...

Cheers boys

http://www.choiceshirts.com/images/A5/55/A5554D-md.jpg

[charlio lemieux]

Patronizing does not make you right
I agree with you that leafs are the greatest revenue generator

my point is very simple and you can't address it
- CBC is Canada's public broadcaster that's own mandate is to provide equal broadcasting while taking risks because they are a public funded station. They are about the people.
- I agree with the article you provided and profits will go down if leafs are out because apparently a large % of leaf fans only watch the leafs even in the playoffs
- This issue is a regular season issue were CBC would still get their ratings because they would still have leaf broadcast in southern Ontario so you're article is irrelevant to this issue.
- Canadian private broadcasters have been doing national feeds of every other team and manage to make money. They CAN'T operate at a loss. How in the hell could CBC a public station not be able to operate like them?


The sad part is that CBC is supposed to provide equal broadcasting for the people but when it comes to the Sens they not only refuse to give us a regular local broadcast they also refuse to sell the rights so Canadians can see their hockey team.

Not trying to patronize you, I'm just try to explain.

You still are missing the entire economics of it. If the CBC does not provide X number of viewers for it's advertisers then the CBC has to give them FREE comercial spots.

- CBC is Canada's public broadcaster that's own mandate is to provide equal broadcasting while taking risks because they are a public funded station. They are about the people.
You have been shown that the CBC is 40% privately funded. Their Public mandate is useless, because 40% of the time they have to listen to what the sponsor's want.

- I agree with the article you provided and profits will go down if leafs are out because apparently a large % of leaf fans only watch the leafs even in the playoffs
Try to look at it without your hate for the leafs. The numbers are similar for every team. There are tons ot bandwagon or playoff only fans, in every city.


- This issue is a regular season issue were CBC would still get their ratings because they would still have leaf broadcast in southern Ontario so you're article is irrelevant to this issue.
How can you not draw a parallel between the decisions made based upon the number of playoff viewers and the number of regular season viewers?
The process is the same regardless of the time of year. "How to make the most money?"

- Canadian private broadcasters have been doing national feeds of every other team and manage to make money. They CAN'T operate at a loss. How in the hell could CBC a public station not be able to operate like them?
Uh huh, and how many of the other national networks do multiple broadcasts of hockey games at the same time?
It makes no sense financially, to do a local and a national broadcast.

I'll tell you again, if you want the CBC to add more local Sens/Oil/Flames/Canucks broadcasts then you will need to get your MP to increase PUBLIC funding to the CBC exclusively for additional HNIC broadcasts. Perhaps going through the Department of Canadian Heritage (http://www.pch.gc.ca/index_e.cfm) is your best bet. The CBC is a slave to it's sponsors.

[Max Power]

I?m glad you pointed out the ratting argument comparative. So if CBC does not get certain ratings it owes its sponsors free air time.
First this is for the playoffs and I don?t see anything pointing to the same being in the regular season. Second CBC usually shows all Canadian teams in the playoffs so there really isn?t any argument there. The one interesting thing is the fact that Calgary getting a national audience brought higher then expected ratings for CBC. Interesting concept that another Canadian team can bring high ratings when the leafs don?t get the national audience. Here, I can even switch your nice leaf bolding to bring a more important point to light

In 2003, the third round of the playoffs -- without the Leafs -- drew only half the television audience of the previous year when the Leafs played.

However, viewership of the most recent playoffs -- in 2004, before the year-long lockout -- was lifted by a strong showing from the Calgary Flames.


As much as I think you have good arguments Charlio it still doesn?t address the fact that CBC has not even tried altering national feeds for other teams so arguing ratings is one thing neither of us can do rationally. My contention is that if CBC split the feed the ratings might stay the same. Yes operating cost would go up but sponsors would still get their air time. Even with a local feed only the ratings should go up. This would fit directly in their mandate if they at the least gave a local feed.
If you still want to argue this it still comes down to how private broadcasters can have local feeds and get sponsors and CBC can not afford it?

Either way I?m done arguing this. Neither of us can come to a logical conclusion to this argument. There are too many factors at hand that we don?t have answers to. I?m sure both of us have valid arguments and I?m willing to leave it at that

[bluemeanie]

I?m sure both of us have valid arguments and I?m willing to leave it at that

Perhaps both of you do have valid arguments... but do either of you have a Glove Alligator Marionette???

http://www.folkmanis.com/imagefilesA/kgalliga.JPG


no... I didn't think so.:no:


I bet you that this year CBC will play more Ottawa games than Toronto games during the playoffs... it's just a hunch.

[Max Power]

Perhaps both of you do have valid arguments... but do either of you have a Glove Alligator Marionette???

snip

no... I didn't think so.:no:
I bet you that this year CBC will play more Ottawa games than Toronto games during the playoffs... it's just a hunch.

No I don't but now I need one
How about this stainless steel replica plastic potato masher for the puppet?
It has multiple mash speeds and can be converted to paper weight or boomerang* for home protection

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001BMZNI.01._PE38_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg






*Must be thrown directly above you to have return effect

[bluemeanie]

No I don't but now I need one
How about this stainless steel replica plastic potato masher for the puppet?
It has multiple mash speeds and can be converted to paper weight or boomerang* for home protection

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001BMZNI.01._PE38_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

*Must be thrown directly above you to have return effect

Now I always promised my self that I'd never fall prey to you slick city sales folk and give in to one of them futuristic tater mashers when my fists have always done the trick in the past... but, I gotta hand it to you mister...that's one fine lookin tater masher.

[charlio lemieux]

I?m glad you pointed out the ratting argument comparative. So if CBC does not get certain ratings it owes its sponsors free air time.
First this is for the playoffs and I don?t see anything pointing to the same being in the regular season. Second CBC usually shows all Canadian teams in the playoffs so there really isn?t any argument there. The one interesting thing is the fact that Calgary getting a national audience brought higher then expected ratings for CBC. Interesting concept that another Canadian team can bring high ratings when the leafs don?t get the national audience. Here, I can even switch your nice leaf bolding to bring a more important point to light



As much as I think you have good arguments Charlio it still doesn?t address the fact that CBC has not even tried altering national feeds for other teams so arguing ratings is one thing neither of us can do rationally. My contention is that if CBC split the feed the ratings might stay the same. Yes operating cost would go up but sponsors would still get their air time. Even with a local feed only the ratings should go up. This would fit directly in their mandate if they at the least gave a local feed.
If you still want to argue this it still comes down to how private broadcasters can have local feeds and get sponsors and CBC can not afford it?

Either way I?m done arguing this. Neither of us can come to a logical conclusion to this argument. There are too many factors at hand that we don?t have answers to. I?m sure both of us have valid arguments and I?m willing to leave it at that

The practice of having to give free air time to sponsors if the minimum number of viewers is not met is the same regardless of sport, or time of year.
The CBC was already forced to compensate advertisers with free ads this year because Olympic broadcasts from Italy were watched by far fewer viewers than anticipated. That was also in the article. The sponsors pay X amount per commercial per game based on an estimated number of viewers. It said in the article that the sponsors pay before any games have been played.

But anyways, I think that trying to persuade the CBC to make less profit is not going to work too well. That is why I suggested that you go through the Dept. of Canadian Heritage. This is what it says on their website:
Canadian Heritage is responsible for national policies and programs that promote Canadian content, foster cultural participation, active citizenship and participation in Canada's civic life, and strengthen connections among Canadians.

You could argue that the lack of regional games on HNIC, which is Canadian Content is detrimental to cultural participation, and undermines the connections among Canadians.
Now if you go right into the Sport Canada dept. you can even go further in you argument. From the sport Canada site:
Sport Canada is a branch of the International and Intergovernmental Affairs and Sport Sector within the federal Department of Canadian Heritage. The Department is dedicated to valuing and strengthening the Canada experience. Sport Canada has three divisions: Sport Programs, Sport Policy, and Major Games and Hosting.

Sport Canada supports the achievement of high performance excellence and the development of the Canadian sport system to strengthen the unique contribution that sport makes to Canadian identity, culture and society.

They want to strengthen the Canadian experience. Well what is more Canadian than Hockey Night in Canada? More regional broadcasts could directly impact the number of participants at the youth level. Which leads right into this: Strengthening Canada
The Socio-economic Benefits of Sport Participation in Canada?
Report August 2005 Found in the Conclusions of that report in Chapter 9 include the following:

1. Canada?s strong sporting culture is a significant part of the fabric of Canada. Governments, communities, families and individuals alike have good reason to value and support participation in sport, based on the findings of this report.
2. Sport plays an important part in the life of millions of Canadians who find their involvement highly rewarding on a personal level. Sport significantly strengthens Canada?s economy and society in real ways. It develops skills that individuals can use to become more productive at work; and it builds social cohesion and social capital, keys to development and prosperity. In adequate amounts, active sport participation improves health by building personal fitness.
8. Sport is a valuable and important means of gaining and enhancing a wide set of transferable skills that are important in work and life, according to survey respondents. Thus, sport is an important element in Canada?s learning culture and would benefit if this fact was recognized.
14. Given the value of sport to our economy and society and the gradual weakening of involvement, government has a strong motive to promote sport. The challenge is twofold: to broaden the number of active participants, and to stimulate them to take part in sport or other physical activity frequently enough to attain CPAG-recommended levels of energy expenditure that will give them significant health gains and other benefits.
Now if you can successfully argue that more regional broadcasts, and the increased local viewership translates into increased youth involvement in Hockey in the immediate area, then you are halfway to getting the funding for HNIC to do additional broadcasts.
You see the trick is not to simply get the CBC more money and hope they do more regional broadcasts, but to make sure the money is earmarked for additional broadcasts before the CBC ever gets it.