Who do you consider the 10 best forwards in NHL right now? [Archive]

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wildboy26

3-09-06, 4:47 PM

This isnt about who you would vote for for various awards, but who do you personaly believe are the 10 best forwards in the game right now? These would be mine in order:

Forwards:

1. Jagr
2. Forsberg
3. Ovechkin
4. Kovalchuk
5. Gagne
6. Alfredsson
7. Staal
8. Thorton
9. Heatley
10. Hossa

bigmac13

3-21-06, 4:37 PM

1. Jaromir Jagr
2. Peter Forsberg
3. Joe Thorton (when he feels like it)
4. Vincent Lecavilier
5. Jerome Iginla
6. Pavel Datsyuk
7. Danny Heatley
8. Ilya Kovalchuk
9. Alexander Ovechkin
10. Markus Naslund

PDO

3-21-06, 5:11 PM

In no particular order..

Forsberg, Jagr, Thornton, Staal, Alfredsson, Kovalchuk, Elias, Hossa, Heatley, Ovechkin.

I'm very leary of a few of the young guys I have in there.. it's hard to know what kind of minutes they're playing, or if it's a fluke year, but with the way guys like Naslund, Bertuzzi, Iginla, etc have played, it's much easier.

A few guys on the cusp, but who aren't quite there or have had injury problems..

Gagne, Crosby, Demitra, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Sakic

Just off the top of my head, and taking away any Oiler bias. Really wish I could see the kind of minutes these guys are playing. Gagne probably deserves to be on that list.

Man.Utd

3-21-06, 6:40 PM

I don't think there's any way Heatley makes this list. He's got the points (somewhat inflated from beating up on weak teams mind you) but he floats way too often, doesn't use his size well at all be it to hit or pretect the puck, and can't score in the shoot-out to save his life. He's a one-dimensional player without the speed to add another dimension to his game.

Top 10 LW'er or top 10 goal scorer? Definatly yes IMO. But not a top ten forward. I'd certainly rank him in my top 15 but even then I could see some people justifiably leaving his name off, .just missing the cut. Definatly top 20. I don't see Martin Havlat getting any mention here. Many people would be stronlgy opposed to him in a top 10, even if they acknowledge he's a very good player. But IMHO he's (more or less) just as good.

Then again, Heater has never rubbed me the way he has many others, Ottawa fans or not.

LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

3-22-06, 1:16 AM

1. Forsberg(big surprise)
2. Thornton
3. Alfredsson
4. Elias
5. Jagr
6. Ovechkin
7. Datsyuk
8. Hossa
9. Zetterberg
10. Gagne

OK, #10 may be a little bias but come on. Gagne does everything you ask of him and does it very, very well. And the Detriot boys are up there cause not only can they put up points, but no one ever mentions that they are pretty good defensively. Plus, I just ate a Buffalo Chicken Cheesesteak, so I'm a bit loopy right now.

Amoroq

3-22-06, 3:10 AM

In no order

Thorton
Elias
Stall
Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Datsyuk
Alfredson
Jokinen
Crosby

Why not Jagr? Only plays when people wipe his ass.
Why not Forsberg? Injury prone, no other reason.

Mel

3-22-06, 9:17 AM

In no order
Thorton
Elias
Stall
Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Datsyuk
Alfredson
Jokinen
Crosby
Why not Jagr? Only plays when people wipe his ass.
Why not Forsberg? Injury prone, no other reason.

whatever that means I have no idea. He leads the NHL in points and goals.

He will finish this season among the top 15 scorers in NHL history.... just a few months past his 34th birthday, and no signs of slowing down.

Half the players on your list are far below Jagr's level.

bluemeanie

3-22-06, 10:22 AM

Why not Jagr? Only plays when people wipe his ass.

I had one of those talking robots when I was a kid. You know...the ones with the flashing lights for eyes and wings that pop up. Anyhow, the ON switch was located on the back side, sorta' between his legs, kinda' actually on its ass. The point is, that unless I "wiped his ass" so-to-speak... he wouldn't "play" either.

Maybe Jagr was made in Taiwan too?

http://www.terranovaart.com/robotpage/images/superrobots/combattra/soc_combattler/combatra_soc_toy1_big.jpg

http://mt.hockeybird.com/jagr1.jpg

Same manufacturer?

PDO

3-22-06, 10:49 AM

In no order

Thorton
Elias
Stall
Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Datsyuk
Alfredson
Jokinen
Crosby

So where's Horcoff?

Exact same players, you can even argue Horcoff is better... plays much tougher minutes and gets much less PP time.

Man.Utd

3-22-06, 4:54 PM

So where's Horcoff?

Exact same players, you can even argue Horcoff is better... plays much tougher minutes and gets much less PP time.

Tougher minutes? Jokinen gets keyed on by opposing team's top defenseman with a capital "K". They're equal at best, if not softer for Horcoff since Edmonton has other stars that require attention like Hemsky, Samsonov and Smyth. Down in Florida it pretty much ends at Jokinen. Both have been centering the top line as to my understanding, so both will have some tight coverage. But again, Horcoff has the benefit. Ottawa can't afford to send a guy like Chara to strictly shadow Horcoff like we can Jokinen when Florida rolls into town.

The PP time is a given, with Horcoff getting 4:00 a game and Jokinen getting 5:00 to lead his team (I'm rounding up for both). But it's not as if Jokinen is getting crazy figures to boost his point totals, as his 5:00 minutes is pretty much par for the course among the stars of the league. In Edmonton both Smyth and Stoll get half a minute more on game per average. Jokinen has 30 PP points, with Horcoff having 24 so it hasn't made a big difference. It is also worth noting that even though Olli has more time on the ice with the advantage, the Florida PP doesn't have as many good names to work with as the Oiler one, even if Horcoff is playing on the 2nd unit. Edmonton's PP is running at a solid though unspectacular 14th overall (17.9%), while Florida is at (14.6%).

Overall though, their ice-time is almost identicle. Horcoff has 19:55/g, Jokinen 20:20/g. So I don't see how you can justifiably say Jokinen's significant (although not monsterous) advantage in production is a result of anything other than him being a better player.

Jokinen has been on fire since signing that bing contract, and has shown the ability to carry an offensive by himself for at least brief stretches. That is something Horcoff hasn't shown to date, and IMHO likely never will.

Jokinen or Horcoff? Jokinen with ease. Maybe I'm selling Horcoff short, but it's a very easy choice for me even if neither makes my top 10

Man.Utd

3-22-06, 5:10 PM

My list, no order:

Alferdsson
Jagr
Hossa
Forsberg
Thornton
Kovalchuk
Ovechkin
Staal
Elias
Datsyuk

Honroable mention (I'll do 5, so at top 15 I guess. Again in no order): Sakic, Gagne, Heatley, Iginla, Zetterberg

HM#2: Crosby would be the next name on my list fairly easily, and is all but a guarantee next season for it. So that's where he is, to avoid any possible questions. ;)

Amoroq

3-22-06, 5:39 PM

whatever that means I have no idea. He leads the NHL in points and goals.

He will finish this season among the top 15 scorers in NHL history.... just a few months past his 34th birthday, and no signs of slowing down.

Half the players on your list are far below Jagr's level.Yes but always at the first sign of advdersity or when things dont go his way he shuts down. Thats not a guy I want, no matter how talented or where he finishes all time.

charlio lemieux

3-22-06, 6:19 PM

Bob burns

3-22-06, 6:57 PM

In no order

Thorton
Elias
Stall
Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Iginla
Datsyuk
Alfredson
Jokinen
Crosby

O sure, fill the list with Leaf players. You Leaf fans are unbelievable. :rolleyes:

Here is a realistic top ten (in alphabetical order):

Naslund
Bertuzzi
Morrison
Jagr
H Sedin
D Sedin
Thornton
Carter
Staal
Linden

PDO

3-22-06, 8:13 PM

Tougher minutes? Jokinen gets keyed on by opposing team's top defenseman with a capital "K". They're equal at best, if not softer for Horcoff since Edmonton has other stars that require attention like Hemsky, Samsonov and Smyth. Down in Florida it pretty much ends at Jokinen. Both have been centering the top line as to my understanding, so both will have some tight coverage. But again, Horcoff has the benefit. Ottawa can't afford to send a guy like Chara to strictly shadow Horcoff like we can Jokinen when Florida rolls into town.

The tough matchup means playing the talented players on the other team. There's two ends of the ice.. and Jokinen is never on the ice against the other teams top line. Didn't last year, doesn't this year. Matchups go 2 ways, and Martin matches Jokinen up against the third line. I wonder why? He gets Iginla treatment, which bloats his numbers. Horcoff consistently kills penalties (he's our first forward to PK if we're on a 5 on 3) and is matched up against the other teams top line more often than not.

The PP time is a given, with Horcoff getting 4:00 a game and Jokinen getting 5:00 to lead his team (I'm rounding up for both). But it's not as if Jokinen is getting crazy figures to boost his point totals, as his 5:00 minutes is pretty much par for the course among the stars of the league. In Edmonton both Smyth and Stoll get half a minute more on game per average. Jokinen has 30 PP points, with Horcoff having 24 so it hasn't made a big difference. It is also worth noting that even though Olli has more time on the ice with the advantage, the Florida PP doesn't have as many good names to work with as the Oiler one, even if Horcoff is playing on the 2nd unit. Edmonton's PP is running at a solid though unspectacular 14th overall (17.9%), while Florida is at (14.6%).

And Edmonton's second PP unit is anchored by Horcoff, with other stars like Fernando Pisani, Radek Dvorak and Raffi Torres. One of Bergeron or Stoll usually makes an appearance, and hopefully Tarnstrom once he's healthy. To say that Horcoff has better support on his PP unit is laughable at best. No Jay-Bow, no Nieuwy, no Olesz nor Horton.

Overall though, their ice-time is almost identicle. Horcoff has 19:55/g, Jokinen 20:20/g. So I don't see how you can justifiably say Jokinen's significant (although not monsterous) advantage in production is a result of anything other than him being a better player.

Plays against worse players so he can score goals against weaker opposition while getting more PP time, less PK time (0:53 compared to 2:55). You're telling me Horcoff's numbers wouldn't be even better if he didn't have to play defense, was on the #1 PP and didn't kill penalties?

Jokinen has been on fire since signing that bing contract, and has shown the ability to carry an offensive by himself for at least brief stretches. That is something Horcoff hasn't shown to date, and IMHO likely never will.

Mainly because he'll never be put in that position. It's not as hard as it sounds, there are times where you're going to score. Does it take talent? Obviously, but the worse your team is, the better your numbers'll be because of that syndrome. Rick Nash doesn't get half as many points in 03-04 as he got on a different team. Same goes for Jokinen this year.. put him on Edmonton and watch his numbers plummet. Him and Horcoff are huge comparables, and that's one of the reasons that most Edmonton fans were disgusted with his contract.

Jokinen or Horcoff? Jokinen with ease. Maybe I'm selling Horcoff short, but it's a very easy choice for me even if neither makes my top 10

Selling him extremely short. His #'s would equally match Jokinen's in Florida, and he's a MUCH better defensive player, as indicated by his PK time and matchups. Neither is in my top 10 either, though Horcoff definitely (and relatively easily) comes before Jokinen.

a4l

3-22-06, 8:25 PM

In no order except for #1. :gulppint:

JAGR
Alfredson
Selanne
Thornton
Staal
Sakic
Crosby
Spezza
Heatley
Ovechkin

Man.Utd

3-22-06, 9:15 PM

The tough matchup means playing the talented players on the other team. There's two ends of the ice.. and Jokinen is never on the ice against the other teams top line. Didn't last year, doesn't this year. Matchups go 2 ways, and Martin matches Jokinen up against the third line. I wonder why? He gets Iginla treatment, which bloats his numbers. Horcoff consistently kills penalties (he's our first forward to PK if we're on a 5 on 3) and is matched up against the other teams top line more often than not.

That can only be true for 50% of the games at most, as Florida doesn't always get the last change. And there's no way he can purely be feasting off of weak opposition. He leads his team in ice-time per game by over 3 minutes, so he's obviously playing in a whole bunch of situations. There's no way he can avoid playing the other stars of the league with that much ice when they're all seeing just as many minutes, and in many cases more.

Horcoff is the better defensive player, but I don't feel it makes up for the gap between these two. Jokinen is better everywhere else. What really rubs me the wrong way is how many PIM's Horcoff has for not being a physical player. I looked at his # of hits and it's even less than I thought at 14. Yet he's still on pace for 92 PIM's this year and had 77 last season in 60 some games.

And Edmonton's second PP unit is anchored by Horcoff, with other stars like Fernando Pisani, Radek Dvorak and Raffi Torres. One of Bergeron or Stoll usually makes an appearance, and hopefully Tarnstrom once he's healthy. To say that Horcoff has better support on his PP unit is laughable at best. No Jay-Bow, no Nieuwy, no Olesz nor Horton.

I don't see how Pisani and Torres are any worse than Olesz and Horton. If this is a future contest the Florida duo wins out no problem. But Olesz has a measly 7 goals and 19 points this year, while Horton though coming along nicely is coming along fairly slowly (not uncommon for powerforwards). His 39 points is only 4 better than Torres' 35. Nieuwendyk is obviously better than Dvorak, but I don't see how that makes the scales so unbalanced.

BTW, the top forwards after Jokinen, Horton and Nieuy in terms of PP ice are Weiss (21 points) and Roberts (30 points) down in the Sunshine State. Nothing spectacular there.

Plays against worse players so he can score goals against weaker opposition while getting more PP time, less PK time (0:53 compared to 2:55). You're telling me Horcoff's numbers wouldn't be even better if he didn't have to play defense, was on the #1 PP and didn't kill penalties?

They may be. But I'd argue not significantly since his two linesmates Hemsky and Smyth would be gone. Out of his 68 points, 48 are assists. I'm not discounting him as a playmaker, but why are his totals so much higher this season? He got over 17:00 last year and notched but 40 points (25 helpers).......

Mainly because he'll never be put in that position. It's not as hard as it sounds, there are times where you're going to score. Does it take talent? Obviously, but the worse your team is, the better your numbers'll be because of that syndrome. Rick Nash doesn't get half as many points in 03-04 as he got on a different team. Same goes for Jokinen this year.. put him on Edmonton and watch his numbers plummet. Him and Horcoff are huge comparables, and that's one of the reasons that most Edmonton fans were disgusted with his contract.

Rick Nash is actually an example to disprove that theory. Sure he got his 41 goals, but only 57 points. 16 assists in 80 games with top-line minutes. But the linemates, like Smyth and Horcoff, were not there. He has 18 assists in 41 games this year. 2x as much flanking guys like Fedorov.

Selling him extremely short. His #'s would equally match Jokinen's in Florida, and he's a MUCH better defensive player, as indicated by his PK time and matchups. Neither is in my top 10 either, though Horcoff definitely (and relatively easily) comes before Jokinen.

I'm not entirely sure how he'd fit into Florida. But I'll tell you one thing, Jokinen centering Hemsky and Smyth would have alot more than 68 ponts. Currently having 75 in Florida, I wouldn't be shocked and would almost expect him to have 85+ with the Oil.

Maybe I'm alone in this. I dunno. Perhaps we should put it to a poll, because I really think it's a very easy choice between Jokinen and Horcoff and obviously you feel very strongly the other way.

MadDevil

3-22-06, 10:49 PM

In no particular order...

Joe Thornton - Big, strong, can be one of the league's most dominant players when on his game.
Patrik Elias - He can score, set guys up, and play in his own end. The most complete LW in the game IMO.
Peter Forsberg - Still has health issues, but when in the lineup can be an absolute force.
Jarome Iginla - Having a down year, but can still do just about everything.
Daniel Alfredsson - He's the Sens captain for a reason.
Pavel Datsyuk - One of the most creative players in the league.
Jaromir Jagr - Despise him because of the teams he's played for, but there's no denying his offensive abilities.
Marian Hossa - Having another solid year for his new team.
Ilya Kovalchuk - Doesn't know the meaing of the word "defense", but one of the league's best goal scorers.
Alexander Ovechkin - I could have put a couple of guys here, but I just like the way he plays.

Mel

3-23-06, 7:55 AM

Yes but always at the first sign of advdersity or when things dont go his way he shuts down. Thats not a guy I want, no matter how talented or where he finishes all time.

I disagree completely.

Look how much adversity the Rangers organization has gone through since Jagr arrived. An all out fire sale of veteran players in March 04... Jagr was stuck on a re-building team that nobody gave any chance of competing this year... So by that logic shouldn't Jagr have "shut down" a long time ago?

No, if anything he has risen to the challenge and already led his team much farther than anybody thought possible.

He is clearly and undeniably one of the top 10 forwards in the NHL right now. (which was the original question - so your point about supposed character flaws are not relevant anyway)

wildboy26

3-23-06, 1:56 PM

I like reading all the different choices made and the opinions. I will say two things though:

1)I am shocked that anybody would have Jagr out of the top 10.
2)I also did not guess as many people having Elias in the top 10 as have, maybe I underrate him in my own mind, since I dont even have him in my top 20.

wildboy26

3-23-06, 1:58 PM

RW
Jagr
Alfredsson
Gaborik
Cheechoo
Demitra
Zetterberg
Hossa
Hemsky
Selanne
Sullivan

Center
Thornton
Staal
Briere
Forsberg
Crosby
Datsyuk
Spezza
Richards
Jokinen
Marleau

LW
Heatley
Nagy
Ovechkin
Elias
Tanguay
Tkachuk
Gagne
Kovalchuk
Kariya
Shanahan

Overall
1. Thornton
2. Jagr
3. Forsberg
4. Staal
5. Ovechkin
6. Datsyuk
7. Zetterberg
8. Kovalchuk
9. Heatley
10.Crosby

Honorable Mentions: Modano, Sakic, Horcoff, Brind'amour, Gionta, Naslund, Smyth, Sundin, Svatos, Prucha, Iginla, Gomez, Arnott, Lehtinen, Nash, H. Sedin, Rolston

Favorite Under-exposed players:
1. Scott Hartnell NSH
2. Ladislav Nagy PHO
3. Brent Seabrook CHI

Wow, now that is in detail. I also recall when we having our Crosby argument regarding the Oly team I tried asking you who you would bump off the first two lines if you believed he could play on those if he were one the team. I think your detailed set of lists probably answers that question for me now too, so thanks.

charlio lemieux

3-23-06, 2:19 PM

MadDevil

3-23-06, 2:37 PM

2)I also did not guess as many people having Elias in the top 10 as have, maybe I underrate him in my own mind, since I dont even have him in my top 20.

I'm incredibly biased when it comes to Elias, but I think anybody else who watches him frequently would tell you why he's on their list. He can do pretty much everything, and do it in a heavily defensive-minded team. He's had 38, 28, 29, 40, and 35 goals in his last 5 full seasons, and on a team like the Devils, that's saying something. Put him on an offensive minded team, and he could be among the league leaders every year in overall scoring. And he can do it while being responsible defensively. There aren't a whole lot of players in the NHL that can truly say that IMO.

But again, I'm very biased...:nod:

PDO

3-23-06, 2:59 PM

Firstly, a big thanks to RiversQ over at hfboards for these stats.

That can only be true for 50% of the games at most, as Florida doesn't always get the last change. And there's no way he can purely be feasting off of weak opposition. He leads his team in ice-time per game by over 3 minutes, so he's obviously playing in a whole bunch of situations. There's no way he can avoid playing the other stars of the league with that much ice when they're all seeing just as many minutes, and in many cases more.

Obviously he can't get the perfect matchup on the road.. but you still get the matchup if you can bench manage, and Martin is one of the best in the business at that, as I'm sure you're well aware.

Horcoff GP ESP ES min ESP/hr PPP PP min PPP/hr
2005-2006 67 39 871.7 2.68 24 267.2 5.39
2003-2004 80 28 1094.0 1.54 9 101.0 5.35
2002-2003 78 30 905.0 1.99 2 47.0 2.55
2001-2002 61 20 631.0 1.90 2 51.0 2.35
Total 286 117 3501.7 2.00 37 466.2 4.76

Jokinen GP ESP ES min ESP/hr PPP PP min PPP/hr
2005-2006 68 44 986.23 2.68 30 336.77 5.34
2003-2004 82 32 1281 1.50 24 375 3.84
2002-2003 81 38 1184 1.93 24 366 3.93
2001-2002 80 20 1052 1.14 7 239 1.76
Total 311 134 4503.23 1.79 85 1316.77 3.87

I love stats :). Horcoff is playing less minutes because he's on the better team; but he's put up equal or better rates every single season in every single statistic. Jokinen plays a ridiculous amount of minutes for a forward.. so of course he gets more scoring opporunties, and thus more points. It should also be noted that he was a black hole on the PP until this season, where his numbers have hit a solid level (your #1 PP guys should all be over 5 PPP/hr).

Now, no one has run the #'s this year.. so I can't tell you anything based on this year for difficulty of minutes for Jokinen nor for Horcoff. What I can tell you is that in 03-04 Horcoff was a "checker". We played him (along with Smyth and Pisani) against the top line every single night. Jokinen spent the lions share of his minutes against the oppositions second line.

Horcoff is the better defensive player, but I don't feel it makes up for the gap between these two. Jokinen is better everywhere else. What really rubs me the wrong way is how many PIM's Horcoff has for not being a physical player. I looked at his # of hits and it's even less than I thought at 14. Yet he's still on pace for 92 PIM's this year and had 77 last season in 60 some games.

Still sure he's better everywhere else and isn't just a result of getting a lot more ice time?

Horcoff's biggest flaw is definitely stupid, STUPID penalties. I'd be willing to bet he leads the league in high sticks. Won't deny that and it rubs me the wrong way more often than not. Hopefully he breaks the habbit, but who knows.

I don't see how Pisani and Torres are any worse than Olesz and Horton. If this is a future contest the Florida duo wins out no problem. But Olesz has a measly 7 goals and 19 points this year, while Horton though coming along nicely is coming along fairly slowly (not uncommon for powerforwards). His 39 points is only 4 better than Torres' 35. Nieuwendyk is obviously better than Dvorak, but I don't see how that makes the scales so unbalanced.

Alright, lets compare the Oilers 2nd unit to the Panthers first unit then, shall we? Once again using that nifty table (this one I've made myself though..!)

For the Oilers..

Player PPP PP Time PPP/Hour
Horcoff 24 267.2 5.39
Pisani 8 120:16 3.99
Torres 10 202:00 2.97
Bergeron 15 328:00 2.74
Dvorak 2 82:23 1.46

And for Florida..

Player PPP PP Time PPP/Hour
Jokinen 30 342:10 5.26
J-Bo 13 243:28 3.20
Horton 8 226:25 2.12
Nieuwy 15 224:26 4.01
Van Ryn 14 225:03 3.73
Stumpel 15 204:57 4.39

I included Stumpel, because I really don't know what Florida's #1 PP is, and if they use 4 forwards or not (most teams do). Now, looking at the #'s.. both Horcoff and Jokinen have very similar rates on the PP, both have atleast one black hole (I actually can't believe Horton's been THAT bad on the PP, but Dvorak has managed to be just as bad, just with a LOT less ice time). The difference though? Horton has 2 other guys who're performing over 4 PP/Hour.. Horcoff has 0, and only one player who's doing a decent job at all in Raffi Torres.

Horcoff is putting up PP points playing with guys who are good hockey players... but useless on the PP. Jokinen atleast has some support there, and it's definitely better than the support that Horcoff has.

They may be. But I'd argue not significantly since his two linesmates Hemsky and Smyth would be gone. Out of his 68 points, 48 are assists. I'm not discounting him as a playmaker, but why are his totals so much higher this season? He got over 17:00 last year and notched but 40 points (25 helpers).......

1) He developed.
2) Look at the rates :).

Asides from that, he's a playmaker. I wish he had more finish - he doesn't. Jokinen is a better goalscorer, no doubt.

Rick Nash is actually an example to disprove that theory. Sure he got his 41 goals, but only 57 points. 16 assists in 80 games with top-line minutes. But the linemates, like Smyth and Horcoff, were not there. He has 18 assists in 41 games this year. 2x as much flanking guys like Fedorov.

Here's the problem with that; and why I regret using the example of Rick Nash.. he's 2 years older now. And that has a huge impact on him as a player. The other thing is, yes Nash has some guys to play with - but his team is still terrible. Put Rick Nash on a playoff team and lets see those stats.. until then.

I'm not entirely sure how he'd fit into Florida. But I'll tell you one thing, Jokinen centering Hemsky and Smyth would have alot more than 68 ponts. Currently having 75 in Florida, I wouldn't be shocked and would almost expect him to have 85+ with the Oil.

And back to the rates :).

Maybe I'm alone in this. I dunno. Perhaps we should put it to a poll, because I really think it's a very easy choice between Jokinen and Horcoff and obviously you feel very strongly the other way.

Jokinen can score goals more effeciently than Horcoff.. that's it. Everything else is a result of the team he plays for and the minutes that he's fed. Horcoff is a better play maker, better defenisvely, equal if not better offensively, a better penalty killer, and gets better PP stats on a worse PP unit.

Anyway.. :]

MadDevil

3-23-06, 3:06 PM

Somebody has way too much time on their hands.:laughing: :D

PDO

3-23-06, 3:07 PM

Somebody has way too much time on their hands.:laughing: :D

I'm in English class... :laughing:

Man.Utd

3-23-06, 6:07 PM

Crazy-ass stats post :)

Well I can't argue the numbers. Obviously these two are closer than I thought after reading that. But I still think Jokinen is the better of the two, even if it's by a smaller gap. I'll just have to contend that this particular situation is a case of numbers being used to tell a story that one particular person wants them too.

All I know is that Jokinen has left me very impressed whenever I've seen him play. Particularily since signing that contract and going on a bit of a hot streak. Horcoff I have admittedly seen less of being out West, but have not come away nearly as impressed with. Maybe because this his big, break out year, and the first season he's truly been a threat offensively ala Jokinen. I'll go out on a limb and say it'll also be his career year.

PDO

3-23-06, 6:24 PM

Well I can't argue the numbers. Obviously these two are closer than I thought after reading that. But I still think Jokinen is the better of the two, even if it's by a smaller gap. I'll just have to contend that this particular situation is a case of numbers being used to tell a story that one particular person wants them too.

All I know is that Jokinen has left me very impressed whenever I've seen him play. Particularily since signing that contract and going on a bit of a hot streak. Horcoff I have admittedly seen less of being out West, but have not come away nearly as impressed with. Maybe because this his big, break out year, and the first season he's truly been a threat offensively ala Jokinen. I'll go out on a limb and say it'll also be his career year.

Fair enough, and in all fairness - it's not all #'s. This is a game played on the ice, and the #'s just help to pain the picture of what we're seeing :).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Jokinen in Oiler silks... but not for $5,000,000, and definitely not to play over Horcoff.

Newfie John

3-23-06, 7:15 PM

Imagine how many points Jagr would have if he put a Darcy Tucker effort in every night?

Mel

3-23-06, 7:48 PM

Imagine how many points Jagr would have if he put a Darcy Tucker effort in every night?

:rollover2

Imagine how many points Darcy Tucker would have if he had a fraction of the skills that Jagr has.

That's a funny post Johnny! :)

Jagr scored a hat trick last night. I didn't see the game unfortunately... the Rangers lost, but last time I checked, Jagr was still the NHL scoring leader.

Darcy Tucker vs. Jagr :rollover:

butterfly_style

3-24-06, 1:06 PM

Mel, didn't you know that according to leaf fans:
Tucker > Everyone

wildboy26

3-24-06, 2:41 PM

Only the overall list is in order.

Made it a lot easier to decide when I could look at the top players in each position, at the same time.
#10 came down to Elias, Alfredsson, Crosby and Spezza. I happen to like Crosby but any of the other three could go there.

As for being on the Olympic teams second line, well I only have a total of three Canadians listed ahead of him, so ....

You also have Ovechkin ahead of Datsyuk and Kovalchuk, so you already rate him, albeit very narrowly, as the best Russian player.

I am shocked you did not have Marion Hossa atleast as an honorable mention though consider how many honorable mentions you gave out.

wildboy26

3-24-06, 2:43 PM

I'm incredibly biased when it comes to Elias, but I think anybody else who watches him frequently would tell you why he's on their list. He can do pretty much everything, and do it in a heavily defensive-minded team. He's had 38, 28, 29, 40, and 35 goals in his last 5 full seasons, and on a team like the Devils, that's saying something. Put him on an offensive minded team, and he could be among the league leaders every year in overall scoring. And he can do it while being responsible defensively. There aren't a whole lot of players in the NHL that can truly say that IMO.

But again, I'm very biased...:nod:

Well I see the Devils play on TV only about 3 times a year usually. So I dont get to see him that much. When I do he impresses me alot, and I consider him one of the few only truly offensively skilled forwards in New Jersey(most forwards there are defensively responsable and rough, tenacious types with limitied offensive skill), he did not impress me enough to even think to have him in my top 10. However I am sure you see him play WAY more than I do so you are definitely in a better position to gauge his full abilities. Your point on his stats are good, especialy considering he is a two-way forward.

charlio lemieux

3-24-06, 3:05 PM

You also have Ovechkin ahead of Datsyuk and Kovalchuk, so you already rate him, albeit very narrowly, as the best Russian player.

I am shocked you did not have Marion Hossa atleast as an honorable mention though consider how many honorable mentions you gave out.

Without a doubt Ovechkin is the best Russian player. At 20 he is already the most consistant and productive offensive producer. Kovalchuk for all his talent disappears for games at a time. Ovechkin's physical play is what narrowly edges out Datsyuk.

If you notice, only those who were not in my top ten positional lists were in the HM's.

wildboy26

3-24-06, 3:58 PM

Without a doubt Ovechkin is the best Russian player. At 20 he is already the most consistant and productive offensive producer. Kovalchuk for all his talent disappears for games at a time. Ovechkin's physical play is what narrowly edges out Datsyuk.

If you notice, only those who were not in my top ten positional lists were in the HM's.

I agree with you on the Russians, but all 3 of them are wildy talented, but Ovechkin is already the most consistent, while the others are a bit Jekyl and Hyde, and he is just tougher playing the physical game and taking the physical game a bit than they are.

Sorry I did not notice what you said on the HM's. You must not be high on Nash then if he all the way down there, but that is ok since I am also down on Nash lately.

charlio lemieux

3-24-06, 4:15 PM

I agree with you on the Russians, but all 3 of them are wildy talented, but Ovechkin is already the most consistent, while the others are a bit Jekyl and Hyde, and he is just tougher playing the physical game and taking the physical game a bit than they are.

Sorry I did not notice what you said on the HM's. You must not be high on Nash then if he all the way down there, but that is ok since I am also down on Nash lately.

Actually Nash almost made it on the top ten LW. Like I said only the Overall picks were in any kind of order.

Man.Utd

3-24-06, 5:48 PM

3. Brent Seabrook CHI

The stand-out Blackhawk rookie defenseman? Or did you include blueliners for that last category. It did state just "players".

:shrug:

charlio lemieux

3-24-06, 10:21 PM

The stand-out Blackhawk rookie defenseman? Or did you include blueliners for that last category. It did state just "players".

:shrug:
Players :thumb:

TimmyTabasco

3-25-06, 12:29 AM

-Jagr
-Ovechkin
-Alfredsson
-Forsberg
-Thornton
-Elias
-Brodeur
-Naslund
-Iginla
-Lidstrom

Now, not all these players are having great years

However, I would still consider them the top 10 best current players

My two cents

wildboy26

3-25-06, 11:19 AM

charlio_lemieux, I notice you did not have Federov or Zherdev on your list. If you have Nash on your honorable mention, I am shocked have to have these two atleast there since they are clearly superior to Nash. In fact in my opinion he is only the 5th best forward in Columbus right now behind Hrdina and Vyborny as well, although I could see somebody rating him 3rd even if for me he isnt that high.

charlio lemieux

3-25-06, 2:42 PM

NashisGod

3-29-06, 11:58 AM

if nash had played the whole year he would be in all of your guys top 10 and the blue jackets would be in the playoff picture

NashisGod

3-29-06, 12:02 PM

I agree with you on the Russians, but all 3 of them are wildy talented, but Ovechkin is already the most consistent, while the others are a bit Jekyl and Hyde, and he is just tougher playing the physical game and taking the physical game a bit than they are.

Sorry I did not notice what you said on the HM's. You must not be high on Nash then if he all the way down there, but that is ok since I am also down on Nash lately.

I dont get how you can be down on rick nash i would like to know your reasons, what has happened that has you down on him? He has 24 goals this year in like 42 games not sure the exact number...dont understand your opinoin on nash and why you would critisize him

Madferret

3-29-06, 12:06 PM

I dont get how you can be down on rick nash i would like to know your reasons, what has happened that has you down on him? He has 24 goals this year in like 42 games not sure the exact number...dont understand your opinoin on nash and why you would critisize him

Start a thread...there's two of them!

Savior 61

4-04-06, 5:13 PM

LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

4-04-06, 11:03 PM

You people overlook Rick Nash WAY TOO much according to page one.

What and why should anyone have anything against Nash? The fact that him and Kovalchuk are two of the best pure goal scorers in the game? Cmon guys, dont be bias.

Well until this year Rick Nash didn't know the meaning of the word defense. And I don't think Kovalchuk knows that the word exists at all.

Honestly, I would take Crosby over Kovalchuk right now.

wildboy26

4-05-06, 1:35 PM

Crosby does not play any good defence either.

Savior 61

4-05-06, 2:58 PM

Well until this year Rick Nash didn't know the meaning of the word defense. And I don't think Kovalchuk knows that the word exists at all.

Honestly, I would take Crosby over Kovalchuk right now.
Nash and Kovalchuk are some of the best PURE GOAL SCORERS in the game.

Pure goal scorer doesnt have to play defense, because all they do it score goals. Sure, theyll get assists here and there, but not many players are thay way, such as Jagr.

Just stop the Nash bashing, and I dont even want to begin on Crosby.

charlio lemieux

4-05-06, 3:56 PM

Who's Nash Bashing? (other than WB?:D)

So what, if he isn't in the top ten on anyones list?

He is simply not there yet.
His PPG would put him in the top 30, which is the top 5% of the league.
Is that not a fair assessment of Nash?
That he is among the top 5% of NHL players?

Savior 61

4-05-06, 4:32 PM

LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

4-06-06, 1:36 AM

Nash and Kovalchuk are some of the best PURE GOAL SCORERS in the game.

Pure goal scorer doesnt have to play defense, because all they do it score goals. Sure, theyll get assists here and there, but not many players are thay way, such as Jagr.

Just stop the Nash bashing, and I dont even want to begin on Crosby.

Yes, they are some of the best pure goal scorers in the league, but that doesn't excuse them from playing defense. Nash seems to have learned that he needs to help his team on the other side of the ice this year, and his game is better for it. But Kovalchuk, from what I have seen, hasn't learned that lesson and until he does, he won't be in my top 10 players, unless he starts puttin up 3 PPG.

I'm not Nash bashing, I'm just callin it like it is, and up until this year anyone who played alongside Nash was guaranteed a minus rating. IMO, that is pitiful.

WB, would you like to explain how good or bad Crosby's defense is??? I've seen him play enough to see that he is one of the few Penguins that are defensively responsible. He is on quite possibly the worst team in the league with only a -8, and has played the most games of any Penguin, leaving him with a much greater chance to have a lower +/-.

TimmyTabasco

4-06-06, 1:04 PM

Here is a realistic top ten (in alphabetical order):

Naslund
Bertuzzi
Morrison
Jagr
H Sedin
D Sedin
Thornton
Carter
Staal
Linden

:laughing:

Classic Burns

MadDevil

4-06-06, 1:09 PM

Yes, they are some of the best pure goal scorers in the league, but that doesn't excuse them from playing defense. Nash seems to have learned that he needs to help his team on the other side of the ice this year, and his game is better for it. But Kovalchuk, from what I have seen, hasn't learned that lesson and until he does, he won't be in my top 10 players, unless he starts puttin up 3 PPG.

I'm not Nash bashing, I'm just callin it like it is, and up until this year anyone who played alongside Nash was guaranteed a minus rating. IMO, that is pitiful.

WB, would you like to explain how good or bad Crosby's defense is??? I've seen him play enough to see that he is one of the few Penguins that are defensively responsible. He is on quite possibly the worst team in the league with only a -8, and has played the most games of any Penguin, leaving him with a much greater chance to have a lower +/-.

I have to agree on Kovalchuk. I mean, he's a great offensive talent, but his defense is nonexistent. He leads the Thrashers in goals and points, and yet has the worst +/- rating on the entire team with a -11. I know he's getting paid to score goals, but if he can't play in his own end, he's too one-dimensional IMO. The only reason I even have him on my top 10 is because of how dangerous a goal scorer he is.

And I have to agree on Crosby as well. Take a look at that roster and tell me how in the world he's going to put up a positive +/- rating. I mean, the Penguins are basically an AHL team sprinkled with a couple veterans at this point. A -8 really isn't all that bad for an 18 year old rookie on a team that gives up 3.88 goals a game.

I'm sure this is going to surprise everybody here, but I'd much rather have a guy who can play in both ends than a guy who cherry picks, and scores a bunch of goals on the PP.:thumb:

wildboy26

4-16-06, 6:05 PM

You people overlook Rick Nash WAY TOO much according to page one.

What and why should anyone have anything against Nash? The fact that him and Kovalchuk are two of the best pure goal scorers in the game? Cmon guys, dont be bias.

If you have Rick Nash in the top 10 forwards in the league I guess you believe all of Sidney Crosby(although he probably is), Patrice Bergeron, Brad Boyes, Mike Comrie, and Kyle Calder are part of the top 10 forwards in the league. After all Hockey Canada obviously believes all of those players are BETTER than Rick Nash right now. They were all invited before him to the World Championships. :nod: