Who's #3?

[charlio lemieux]

In the last two-and-a-half decades we have been privilaged to watch some of the best tallent to ever play the game.
While we could debate endlessly over who was the Best, there is no argument that Lemieux and Gretzky are head and shoulders above the rest.
So in the last 25 years who has been the 3rd best player in the NHL?

Had to play in the 80's to be considered.

[PDO]

Yzerman - and just barely.

The guy had everything, won everything, and did it all for one franchise with a staggering amount of class. There's a reason Illitch said he wouldn't trade Yzerman for Gretzky straight up - and that leadership, class, skill and charachter is why. How many Selke winners can you think of who can claim to have scored 60 goals? Or captained a team to a Stanley Cup victory on one leg? I don't like including goalies in these types of things, because it becomes very hard to guage - it's not even all that fair comparing defenseman to forwards. Anyway, in the past 25 years..

Forwards:

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Yzerman
4. Sakic
5. Messier

Defensemen:

1. Bourque
2. MacInnis
3. Stevens
4. Coffey
5. Savard

Goalies:

1. Hasek
(Significant gap ;])
2. Roy

Edit: Hull and GILMOUR? What the? From the 80's off the top of my head Coffey, Savard, Oates, Kurri are all far more deserving. Nik Lidstrom just misses the cut but I think is someone who should be mentioned, same goes for Fedorov and Modano - the game is played in both ends of the rink, and these 3 are truly 3 the greatest two-way players of all time. Jagr's name can also be thrown into the ring - especially if you're including a guy like Hull. On talent and success before being injured by that **** Ulf, I think Neely is a top 10 forward of the past 25 years easily... maybe top 5.

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

Messier. As much as I like Yzerman, Messier may be one of the top 5 players all-time. He possesses all the things that PDO ust said about Yzerman, only a little better. One of the best captains ever. Who else can guarantee a win and then go out and score a natural hat trick for the win??? Even as good as Greztky an Lemieux were, they couldn't play the physical style that Messier could, not that they needed to. Well, Lemieux could but you never know if he'll slip a disc layin a hit. Messier could play whatever style you want him to and dominate.

[Newfie John]

If Orr could have finished his career he'd be without doubt #3, if not ahead of Mario, and possibly even ahead of Gretz.

[PDO]

If Orr could have finished his career he'd be without doubt #3, if not ahead of Mario, and possibly even ahead of Gretz.

* Past 25 years, not 35 ;).


Messier. As much as I like Yzerman, Messier may be one of the top 5 players all-time. He possesses all the things that PDO ust said about Yzerman, only a little better. One of the best captains ever. Who else can guarantee a win and then go out and score a natural hat trick for the win??? Even as good as Greztky an Lemieux were, they couldn't play the physical style that Messier could, not that they needed to. Well, Lemieux could but you never know if he'll slip a disc layin a hit. Messier could play whatever style you want him to and dominate.

Messier did bring a physical game that Yzerman and Sakic can't lay claim to - but he was also inferior both offensively and (especially in Yzermans case) defensively. I think Messier is one of the all time greats - no doubt. I love the guy, and he's one of my favourite players; I just think he gets glorified to ridiculous amounts because he was the best player to ever play for the Rangers.

Anyway, really, when it comes down to it.. you're splitting hairs. I do take Yzerman and I'm flipping a coin between Sakic and Messier if I'm creating a team though. 20 minutes ago I put Sakic ahead of Messier, now I'm thinking Messier should be ahead of Sakic.. and in an hour I'll be thinking otherwise ;).

[Newfie John]

* Past 25 years, not 35 ;).



Hense the reason I said if he had finished his career.

[Man.Utd]

Yzerman with that Nepean bias. Bourque a very close second for me, then Messier.

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

Messier did bring a physical game that Yzerman and Sakic can't lay claim to - but he was also inferior both offensively and (especially in Yzermans case) defensively. I think Messier is one of the all time greats - no doubt. I love the guy, and he's one of my favourite players; I just think he gets glorified to ridiculous amounts because he was the best player to ever play for the Rangers.

Anyway, really, when it comes down to it.. you're splitting hairs. I do take Yzerman and I'm flipping a coin between Sakic and Messier if I'm creating a team though. 20 minutes ago I put Sakic ahead of Messier, now I'm thinking Messier should be ahead of Sakic.. and in an hour I'll be thinking otherwise ;).

I do realize it's splitting hairs, because you could start a team with any one of these players and have yourself set for 15 years.

But I think Messier's intangibles clearly excel over Sakic's and just barely edge out Yzerman's leadership-wise. The raw intensity that he brought to the game was enough to get everyone scared into thier best hockey. While Yzerman led by example, Messier would almost tell you that this is what you're gonna do and if you don't I'll see you in the locker room. He is someone no one wanted to answer to. No, Messier wasn't as good as either offensively but I only believe that it's by a small margin. Messier has 2 Hart Trophies and a Pearson on Yzerman. While Yzerman claims a Selke and Masterson over Messier. Maybe it's just my preference but I would take Messier over Yzerman.

[charlio lemieux]

Edit: Hull and GILMOUR? What the? From the 80's off the top of my head Coffey, Savard, Oates, Kurri are all far more deserving. Nik Lidstrom just misses the cut but I think is someone who should be mentioned, same goes for Fedorov and Modano - the game is played in both ends of the rink, and these 3 are truly 3 the greatest two-way players of all time. Jagr's name can also be thrown into the ring - especially if you're including a guy like Hull. On talent and success before being injured by that **** Ulf, I think Neely is a top 10 forward of the past 25 years easily... maybe top 5.

Yes Hull and Gilmour.
Hull is one of the best goal scorers ever. 741 Goals scored. Unthinkable to leave him off. He didn't even start in the league until he was 23. Imagine his numbers if he had been brought up as an 18 or 19yr old.
Gilmour set the Leafs record for points, 32g 95a 127pts , in in 1992-93 and won the Selke trophy at the same time. So if that isn't the epitome of playing at both ends of the ice I don't know what is.
Gilmour Carreer Stats:
Games G - A -- Pts - +/- -PIM
1,474 450 964 1,414 132 1,301
That easily puts him up there with Savard, Oates, Kurri,and Coffey.
His grit, leadership, determination and ability to play like he was 6'4" instead of 5'9" put him above those mentioned.
Modano, Jagr, Lidstrom and Fedorov don't qualify as they didn't play a full season in the '80s.
Neely - Was a great power forward he just didn't play enough.
Coffey - Never had to show leadership. overshadowed by others on Pit/Edm
Kurri - Had the same issue as Coffey. Never in a position to lead.
Savard - Lacks the grit of Gilmour. His fight with Leeman.:rolleyes::laughing:

There is only 10 spaces, and I had to get some D-men in there.
Defensemen:

1. Bourque
2. MacInnis
3. Stevens
4. Coffey
5. Savard

psst... Savard is a forward.

Goalies:

1. Hasek
(Significant gap ;])
2. Roy
Hasek didn't play in the 80's.
If I had included goalies, Roy would be there.

Hense the reason I said if he had finished his career.
Too much of Orr's carreer was in the 70's. It's what they did from 1980 on.

But I think Messier's intangibles clearly excel over Sakic's and just barely edge out Yzerman's leadership-wise. The raw intensity that he brought to the game was enough to get everyone scared into thier best hockey. While Yzerman led by example, Messier would almost tell you that this is what you're gonna do and if you don't I'll see you in the locker room. He is someone no one wanted to answer to. No, Messier wasn't as good as either offensively but I only believe that it's by a small margin. Messier has 2 Hart Trophies and a Pearson on Yzerman. While Yzerman claims a Selke and Masterson over Messier. Maybe it's just my preference but I would take Messier over Yzerman.
Messier can easily hold his own offensively with Yzerman and Sakic. You are right, it is his raw energy and physical play that give him the edge over them leadership wise.
The only one who challenges Messier's grit is Gilmour, unfortunately he didn't have Messier's size, but he was every bit the leader. Tough call but I have to go Messier. His carreer acheivements and stats just outshine the others.

3. Messier
4. Yzerman
5. Gilmour
6. Sakic

[Max Power]

I'd put Mike Bossy above more then a few of those players but his NHL start goea a little over the 25 years

[a4l]

Coffey, Kurri, Muller.

[leaferfan87]

It's a toss-up between Messier and Francis. Messier is #2 all time in points and was one of the greatest leaders of the modern era. Francis quietly put up tons of assists.

I voted Messier because of the leadership factor and that his career resulted in him being #2 in points.

[TimmyTabasco]

Francis should be up there

This guy is very underrated. If he had played on a Canadian team, he would have gotten a lot more attention.

[PDO]

Yes Hull and Gilmour.
Hull is one of the best goal scorers ever. 741 Goals scored. Unthinkable to leave him off. He didn't even start in the league until he was 23. Imagine his numbers if he had been brought up as an 18 or 19yr old.
Gilmour set the Leafs record for points, 32g 95a 127pts , in in 1992-93 and won the Selke trophy at the same time. So if that isn't the epitome of playing at both ends of the ice I don't know what is.
Gilmour Carreer Stats:
Games G - A -- Pts - +/- -PIM
1,474 450 964 1,414 132 1,301
That easily puts him up there with Savard, Oates, Kurri,and Coffey.
His grit, leadership, determination and ability to play like he was 6'4" instead of 5'9" put him above those mentioned.
Modano, Jagr, Lidstrom and Fedorov don't qualify as they didn't play a full season in the '80s.
Neely - Was a great power forward he just didn't play enough.
Coffey - Never had to show leadership. overshadowed by others on Pit/Edm
Kurri - Had the same issue as Coffey. Never in a position to lead.
Savard - Lacks the grit of Gilmour. His fight with Leeman.:rolleyes::laughing:

Like I said, I don't see how you can say that it only counts if they played in the first 10 years of the past 25.. doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, especially being that most of them played in the early 90's.. it's not like I'm saying Eric Staal or Alexander Ovechkin.

As for the direct comparisons - how come Hull can get away with being a terrible leader but Coffey, Kurri and Savard don't get the mention because they played on great teams? Because Hull got to light his stats up early on his career playing with Adam Oates? :shrug:

There is only 10 spaces, and I had to get some D-men in there.

psst... Savard is a forward.

... Okay, no more beer and posting.


Hasek didn't play in the 80's.
If I had included goalies, Roy would be there.

Including Roy on any list and leaving Hasek off the same list is a tragedy.

[charlio lemieux]

Like I said, I don't see how you can say that it only counts if they played in the first 10 years of the past 25.. doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, especially being that most of them played in the early 90's.. it's not like I'm saying Eric Staal or Alexander Ovechkin.

The line has to be drawn somewhere. A full season in the eighties seemd a logical place to draw said line.

As for the direct comparisons - how come Hull can get away with being a terrible leader but Coffey, Kurri and Savard don't get the mention because they played on great teams? Because Hull got to light his stats up early on his career playing with Adam Oates?
Coffey had Bourque, MacInnis and Leetch ahead of him as a D-man
Savard still had Stastny to get past before he was on my list. Trust me if you had seen his fight with Leeman, you would slide him down the depth chart.
Kurri has 601 goals I think it is. Hull has 741. Yes Hull had Oates. Kurri had Gretzky. There wasn't a true goalscorer in the NHL who had as a productive or lengthy carreer as Brett Hull did in the last 25 years. Gartner was the only one who really met all the criteria and came close. Others like Neely and Bossy just didn't play long enough.
... Okay, no more beer and posting.

That could be an idea. I find it hard to read after a few.
Including Roy on any list and leaving Hasek off the same list is a tragedy.
Sorry. Tragedy or not Hasek didn't qualify. He started too old. Shame really, he could have re-written the record books.

[PDO]

10 years ago it was '96.. I think it's just as logical to draw the line there, being any player worth mentioning in a thread like this would've already played in his prime. Just my opinion, but if we're mentioning the past 25 years, I don't see why the last 15 should be ignored for a large part.

Savard vs. Statsny is an interesting comparison, but one I don't think I'm suited to really comment on as I didn't see a lot of either, especially Statsny.

The thing about Kurri/Gretzky and Hull/Oates is that Kurri was the complete player on the Gretzky line while Oates was the complete player on the Hull line. Kurri was the defensive presence that Gretzky simply didn't have - Hull NEVER had that, great goal scorer or not. Hull was the guy goalsucking, while Kurri was the guy backchecking.

Neely and Bossy didn't play long enough, and it's a damn shame; though Bossy was a whiner and as an Oiler fan I don't mind that he didn't play for too long ;). Neely's a sad story.. scored 50 in 44 and still doesn't get the respect he deserves from many for (and yes, I loved the Moose..) defining the power forward of the 90's.

Finally.. I don't see how Leetch is ahead of Coffey. He had some good intangibles, yes.. but Coffey's numbers and offensive talent are unmatched by any defenseman in history after Bobby Orr. Bourque was a MUCH better defensive defenseman, and an amazing offensive talent - but he wasn't Paul Coffey.

1409 GP 396 G 1135 A 1531 P

Even more impressive, in the playoffs..

194 GP 59 G 137 A 196 P

Compared to Leetch..

1144 GP 242 G 754 A 996 P

95 GP 28 G 69 A 97 P

I can admit that Coffey wasn't as good as MacInnis (though, I believe it was extremely close, and if MacInnis has an average slapshot it's goes to Coffey; but he didn't, so that's a moot point).

However, Coffey had a longer, more successful career than Leetch. Both were money in the playoffs, neither was stellar defensively (contrary to what many people will tell you though, both were still very strong defensively - neither's a Gonchar). Was Coffey ever the "go-to" guy? No, he wasn't. However, he also collected 5 stanley cups on 3 different teams (3 in Edmonton, 1 in Pittsburgh, 1 in Detroit) compared to Leetch's 1. Fact is, Coffey was an impact player who won everywhere he played, and was the 2nd best offensive defenseman all time. Leetch, while a great player, wasn't a better offensive player, was probably about equal defensively, and I don't think you can say his leadership pushes him past when Coffey was a cup winner in 3 different cities, while being an impact player for those teams.

Admittingly, I don't like the "winner" argument, but with a guy like Coffey I thnik he's an exception that rule, as he was always a big part of those teams that won the cup; and it's against the ever popular "leadership" argument ;).

[charlio lemieux]

10 years ago it was '96.. I think it's just as logical to draw the line there, being any player worth mentioning in a thread like this would've already played in his prime. Just my opinion, but if we're mentioning the past 25 years, I don't see why the last 15 should be ignored for a large part. It is the best over the last 25 years. Allowing players who have been playing for less than half that time makes no sense. Making the players have atleast one season in the NHL during the 80's, I was hoping, would have eliminated young guys from crying over players like Jagr or Forsberg. :D :wicked: I wanted players who are already done or are 1 or 2 seasons away from calling it a carreer. Modano is the only one I feel bad about missing due to the cut off, and he still wouldn't have been on the list.

Savard vs. Statsny is an interesting comparison, but one I don't think I'm suited to really comment on as I didn't see a lot of either, especially Statsny.

The thing about Kurri/Gretzky and Hull/Oates is that Kurri was the complete player on the Gretzky line while Oates was the complete player on the Hull line. Kurri was the defensive presence that Gretzky simply didn't have - Hull NEVER had that, great goal scorer or not. Hull was the guy goalsucking, while Kurri was the guy backchecking.
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: You're 17 right? So if you are too young to remember and compare Savard to Stastny, how the heck can you remember when Gretzky was an Oiler, or Oates a Blue? I'm sorry, but that just struck me as funny when I read it. There really wasn't much defense being played in Edmonton in the 80's. Regardless, it is plain to see you just don't like Hull, so be it.


Neely and Bossy didn't play long enough, and it's a damn shame; though Bossy was a whiner and as an Oiler fan I don't mind that he didn't play for too long ;). Neely's a sad story.. scored 50 in 44 and still doesn't get the respect he deserves from many for (and yes, I loved the Moose..) defining the power forward of the 90's.

Finally.. I don't see how Leetch is ahead of Coffey. He had some good intangibles, yes.. but Coffey's numbers and offensive talent are unmatched by any defenseman in history after Bobby Orr. Bourque was a MUCH better defensive defenseman, and an amazing offensive talent - but he wasn't Paul Coffey.

1409 GP 396 G 1135 A 1531 P

Even more impressive, in the playoffs..

194 GP 59 G 137 A 196 P

Compared to Leetch..



95 GP 28 G 69 A 97 P

I can admit that Coffey wasn't as good as MacInnis (though, I believe it was extremely close, and if MacInnis has an average slapshot it's goes to Coffey; but he didn't, so that's a moot point).

However, Coffey had a longer, more successful career than Leetch. Both were money in the playoffs, neither was stellar defensively (contrary to what many people will tell you though, both were still very strong defensively - neither's a Gonchar). Was Coffey ever the "go-to" guy? No, he wasn't. However, he also collected 5 stanley cups on 3 different teams (3 in Edmonton, 1 in Pittsburgh, 1 in Detroit) compared to Leetch's 1. Fact is, Coffey was an impact player who won everywhere he played, and was the 2nd best offensive defenseman all time. Leetch, while a great player, wasn't a better offensive player, was probably about equal defensively, and I don't think you can say his leadership pushes him past when Coffey was a cup winner in 3 different cities, while being an impact player for those teams.

Admittingly, I don't like the "winner" argument, but with a guy like Coffey I thnik he's an exception that rule, as he was always a big part of those teams that won the cup; and it's against the ever popular "leadership" argument ;).

Come on! :rolleyes: Coffey won with three of the most stacked teams of the last 25 years. Leetch never had even close to that much support even the year when he won the cup. Plus Leetch's stats, should be lower, considering he had to play through the low scoring, trap infested, past decade . If most of his carreer had been in the freewheeling 80's he would have a few hundred more points.

Coffey played with the following players either entering, or already in their prime, (all time scoring): G Anderson, Kurri(16), LeClair, Lindros, Francis(5), K Stevens, Recchi, Murphy, Primeau, Lidstrom, Larionov, Sheppard and Fedorov. Plus some Rookie named Jagr.
That is an impressive list and doesn't even mention the four best players of the last 25 years in Gretzky(1), Lemieux(6), Messier(3) and Yzerman(7). All of whom he played with in their prime, accounting for a total of 16 seasons, of playing with atleast one of the top 5 players, of an entire generation.

Who did Leetch have? No one like the players Coffey played with. When Leetch finally played with the Moose it was on the down side of his carreer. Gretzky was no where near the player he once was when he arrived in New York.
Actually the best way to look at it is this way:
Paul Coffey played with 9 consecutive Art Ross trophy winners to start his Carreer. Brian Leetch played with none, zero, nada, zip. So as good as he was you still have to keep Coffey's numbers in perspective. He did have alot of help.

Was Coffey ever a Captain? I don't believe so.
Coffey was always atleast 4th if not further down the leadership depth charts. Leetch was a long time assistant captain and was "the guy" in New York from Oct 1997 to July 2000.

Leetch's updated carreer stats:
1179 GP 246 G 771 A 1017 P

Calder Trophy 1989
Conn Smythe Trophy 1994
Norris Trophy 1992, 1997

Coffey
Norris Trophy 1985, 1986 ,1995* Lockout shortened season.

As for Coffey being the second best offensive defenseman of all time, that is debatable. I would have to say that Denis Potvin was up there too, with Leetch ,and Coffey. Offensively Orr, Potvin, Leetch and Coffey are definately a cut above the rest. I like Leetch because, offensively he has done what he has done with a lot less help than Coffey had, and shown great leadership on top of it as well. The Conn Smythe Trophy seals it.

[wildboy26]

Definitely Messier when you factor in all the intangibles he brought to the game.

[a4l]

Definitely Messier when you factor in all the intangibles he brought to the game.

That line seem awfully familiar.:laughing: