View Full Version : Lecavalier: flake, floater or force?
charlio lemieux
11-30-05, 5:01 PM
Ok that's enough ragging on Lecavalier. Let's have a look a the list the players who have more goals in the last two seasons.
LeCavalier has 65 the last 2 NHL campaigns.
Hejduk 85
Naslund 83
Hossa 81
Kovalchuk 79
Iginla 76
Murray 76
St.louis 71
Sundin 68
Fedorov 67
Jagr 67
Elias 66
LeCavalier 65
Tkachuk 64
Bertuzzi 63
Jokinen 62
Alfredsson 59
Guerin 59
Sakic 59
Thornton 59
Demitra 59
Nash 58
There's a few players not there due to injury, but the no matter how you look at it LeCavalier is one of the top snipers in the league. Plus he is still only 25, his best is yet to come.
The stat becomes even more impressive when you consider he acomplished this as a second line player. The only other second line player on the whole list is Cappy Alfie, and he is debatable.
(I split this topic off the main Team Canada thread and moved the Lecavalier posts to this new Trash Talk thread. Iced Tea).
Ok that's enough ragging on Lecavalier. Let's have a look a the list the players who have more goals in the last two seasons.
LeCavalier has 65 the last 2 NHL campaigns.
Hejduk 85
Naslund 83
Hossa 81
Kovalchuk 79
Iginla 76
Murray 76
St.louis 71
Sundin 68
Fedorov 67
Jagr 67
Elias 66
LeCavalier 65
Tkachuk 64
Bertuzzi 63
Jokinen 62
Alfredsson 59
Guerin 59
Sakic 59
Thornton 59
Demitra 59
Nash 58
There's a few players not there due to injury, but the no matter how you look at it LeCavalier is one of the top snipers in the league. Plus he is still only 25, his best is yet to come.
The stat becomes even more impressive when you consider he acomplished this as a second line player. The only other second line player on the whole list is Cappy Alfie, and he is debatable.
When he does something worthy of his hype and salary I'll stop ragging on him, until then I'll take Murray, Sakic and Shanahan over him, the last 2 in a heartbeat, and your own numbers say Murray's the better sniper, plus we know he's a great fit with Thornton.
charlio lemieux
11-30-05, 6:49 PM
Still he is a far cry from a flake. And he did acomplish those numbers on the second line as opposed to Murray, who is on the top line.
A 25yr old who just scored back to back 30 goal seasons, has done nothing worthy?
Still he is a far cry from a flake. And he did acomplish those numbers on the second line as opposed to Murray, who is on the top line.
A 25yr old who just scored back to back 30 goal seasons, has done nothing worthy of his hype and salary?
No, I don't think so. He's hyped and paid like an elite player without ever having been one, I'll take Smyth over him due to intangibles/leadership. He is a flake because in his young career, when confronted with obstacles, he chose to be pouty, unproductive and demanding instead of displaying qualities that make the great players great, for that reason and his underacheivement, I don't think he has come close to living up to the billing he's received, and I doubt he ever will.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why a guy who's so highly touted and who has been in the league several more years than Richards has had to yield the top-line to him?
charlio lemieux
11-30-05, 7:29 PM
No, I don't think so. He's hyped and paid like an elite player without ever having been one, I'll take Smyth over him due to intangibles/leadership. He is a flake because in his young career, when confronted with obstacles, he chose to be pouty, unproductive and demanding instead of displaying qualities that make the great players great, for that reason and his underacheivement, I don't think he has come close to living up to the billing he's received, and I doubt he ever will.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why a guy who's so highly touted and who has been in the league several more years than Richards has had to yield the top-line to him?
Perhaps you should check your facts. 2 seasons difference. Richards was an elite scorer in the QMJHL. 29 teams are still asking how they passed him up. I've said Richards was just as good or better before he skated in the NHL.
But whether or not Richards is better has no bearing on the fact LeCavalier is one of the best young centers in the game today. He made Prospal a Point a game Player, and is doing it again. If you put St. Louis on LeCavalier's line, like magic, it becomes the top line.
No, I don't think so. He's hyped and paid like an elite player without ever having been one, I'll take Smyth over him due to intangibles/leadership. He is a flake because in his young career, when confronted with obstacles, he chose to be pouty, unproductive and demanding instead of displaying qualities that make the great players great, for that reason and his underacheivement, I don't think he has come close to living up to the billing he's received, and I doubt he ever will.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why a guy who's so highly touted and who has been in the league several more years than Richards has had to yield the top-line to him?
Perhaps you should check your facts. 2 seasons difference. Richards was an elite scorer in the QMJHL. 29 teams are still asking how they passed him up. I've said Richards was just as good or better before he skated in the NHL.
But whether or not Richards is better has no bearing on the fact LeCavalier is one of the best young centers in the game today. He made Prospal a Point a game Player, and is doing it again. If you put St. Louis on LeCavalier's line, like magic, it becomes the top line.
Check my facts? I said several, it's 2, splitting hairs I'd say, and a red herring regardless, LeFlake's been here 2 years longer, yet Richards is the 1st liner center, that's the point.
Funny how if Leflake makes Prospal better, why is it that the one thing Leflake asked for (aside from a Dumptruck load of money) to keep him in Tbay was that they get Prospal back? Maybe because Leflake's production took a big nosedive without him?
Look, if you're a fan of Leflake, fine, but until he proves otherwise, to me he'll remain one of the most overrated players in the game.
charlio lemieux
11-30-05, 8:38 PM
Check my facts? I said several, it's 2, splitting hairs I'd say, and a red herring regardless, LeFlake's been here 2 years longer, yet Richards is the 1st liner center, that's the point.
Funny how if Leflake makes Prospal better, why is it that the one thing Leflake asked for (aside from a Dumptruck load of money) to keep him in Tbay was that they get Prospal back? Maybe because Leflake's production took a big nosedive without him?
Look, if you're a fan of Leflake, fine, but until he proves otherwise, to me he'll remain one of the most overrated players in the game.
When did this become about Richards v. LeCavalier.
The only reason Richards line is the first line is because of St. Louis. And the only reason Richards is with St. Louis is because he is more of a playmaker and not as good a goal scorer as LeCavalier.
Just show the guy some respect. Calling him LeFlake only makes you look foolish.
BTW : 2 = Couple, 3 = a few, 4+ = several
LeCavalier's goal total only dropped by one. Not as bad as his assist totals which dropped because, surprise surprise, he had no one to pass to. His assist total droped by 11 for a grand total of a 12 point difference. Prospal on the other hand experienced a 25 point drop in production. So who is more valuable to who?
When did this become about Richards v. LeCavalier.
The only reason Richards line is the first line is because of St. Louis. And the only reason Richards is with St. Louis is because he is more of a playmaker and not as good a goal scorer as LeCavalier.
Just show the guy some respect. Calling him LeFlake only makes you look foolish.
BTW : 2 = Couple, 3 = a few, 4+ = several
LeCavalier's goal total only dropped by one. Not as bad as his assist totals which dropped because, surprise surprise, he had no one to pass to. His assist total droped by 11 for a grand total of a 12 point difference. Prospal on the other hand experienced a 25 point drop in production. So who is more valuable to who?
There's really no need for namecalling simply because you disagree with my opinion, that will definitely make one look foolish.
As I said, when he earns it, he'll get my respect, and not until, so again, don't tell me what to do, you think he's great, fine, I don't, that's why it's an opinion, get over it.
So you want to continue to split hairs, I've already agreed it was 2, but again , whether the actual number of years is 2 or 3 is irrelevant and you know it.
BTW if a "couple", "few" or "several" equalled exact numbers there would be no reason for the words to exist, they do so because they describe numbers which are not exact.
Richards is on the first line because he's better, period, he came onto the team and immedately became the leading scorer and 1st line center despite LeFlake having been there several years earlier, and he's outscored him by a wide margin ever since, same in the playoffs, oh and then there's that Conn Smythe thing.
charlio lemieux
11-30-05, 9:17 PM
There's really no need for namecalling simply because you disagree with my opinion, that will definitely make one look foolish.
As I said, when he earns it, he'll get my respect, and not until, so again, don't tell me what to do, you think he's great, fine, I don't, that's why it's an opinion, get over it.
So you want to continue to split hairs, I've already agreed it was 2, but again , whether the actual number of years is 2 or 3 is irrelevant and you know it.
BTW if a "couple", "few" or "several" equalled exact numbers there would be no reason for the words to exist, they do so because they describe numbers which are not exact.
Richards is on the first line because he's better, period, he came onto the team and immedately became the leading scorer and 1st line center despite LeFlake having been there several years earlier, and he's outscored him by a wide margin ever since, same in the playoffs, oh and then there's that Conn Smythe thing.
The only one name calling is you calling somebody LeFlake.
Check your facts again! LeCavalier out scored Richards 78 - 74 2002-2003.
BTW a couple, and a few do have numerical values. Two people is a couple, don't cha know.
I'm done, my point is proven. You want to turn this into a Richards v LeCavalier thing and still can't prove LeCavalier is a lousy player who is a flake and floats around. When you can make a decent argument with some facts maybe, I'd be happy to listen.
The only one name calling is you calling somebody LeFlake.
Check your facts again! LeCavalier out scored Richards 78 - 74 2002-2003.
BTW a couple, and a few do have numerical values. Two people is a couple, don't cha know.
I'm done, my point is proven. You want to turn this into a Richards v LeCavalier thing and still can't prove LeCavalier is a lousy player who is a flake and floats around. When you can make a decent argument with some facts maybe, I'd be happy to listen.
Are you Leflake?
I said he's outscored him ever since, and he has, check your facts again.
Did I use the word "couple"?
Your point is proven? What point is that, that you think Leflake is a "great" player?
It's funny you were arguing that Smyth is overrated but the very same arguments can be made for Leflake (as well as his lousy, selfish attitude) yet you don't see them? :conspire:
The FACT is, Leflake has never done anything to deserve the hype and salary that he gets, what other FACTS do you require?
Listen or don't I could hardly care less if I tried, just don't tell me who I have to respect and who I don't.
charlio lemieux
11-30-05, 10:18 PM
Are you Leflake?
I said he's outscored him ever since, and he has, check your facts again.
Did I use the word "couple"?
Your point is proven? What point is that, that you think Leflake is a "great" player?
It's funny you were arguing that Smyth is overrated but the very same arguments can be made for Leflake (as well as his lousy, selfish attitude) yet you don't see them? :conspire:
The FACT is, Leflake has never done anything to deserve the hype and salary that he gets, what other FACTS do you require?
Listen or don't I could hardly care less if I tried, just don't tell me who I have to respect and who I don't.
Facts???
Facts???
I'll restate them for you:
Leflake plays 2nd fiddle to a guy who's been in the league several years less.
He's been vastly outplayed by that 1st line center since they've been in the league together.
He's hyped and paid like an elite player but has done nothing to show that he is one.
He's had numerous "problems" with his coach and team such as being benched for refusing to play both ways, floating, etc to the point where there's been talk of him demanding a trade, complaining about icetime, and almost signing elsewhere until Tbay threw so much money at him that he couldn't refuse it.
Now how'bout those "facts" that prove he's a "great player"? :rolleyes:
charlio lemieux
11-30-05, 11:20 PM
I'll restate them for you:
Leflake plays 2nd fiddle to a guy who's been in the league several years less.
He's been vastly outplayed by that 1st line center since they've been in the league together.
He's hyped and paid like an elite player but has done nothing to show that he is one.
He's had numerous "problems" with his coach and team such as being benched for refusing to play both ways, floating, etc to the point where there's been talk of him demanding a trade, complaining about icetime, and almost signing elsewhere until Tbay threw so much money at him that he couldn't refuse it.
Now how'bout those "facts" that prove he's a "great player"? :rolleyes:
Everything you brought up I refuted, with statistics. Go back and Read it. Two is not several. Get over it. I'm surprised you haven't tried to tell me how much younger Richards is.
Because he has problems with his coach, he has to be a Flake. You brought up the term "great player", I set out to prove that LeCavalier isn't everything you say he is and I did. Whatever problems he had are in the past, he is a solid player and doesn't deserve to be trashed the way you trash him. If you choose to ignore facts and statistics which show he is among the better players in the league, facts such as his recent (last two seasons) play, that is your own business.
How has Richards "vastly out played " LeCavalier? You spout all these interesting tidbits without ever backing them up with numbers. 13 points is all Richards scored more than LeCavalier during the last season. Now that is 13 points while playing with a 29 goal scorer in Modin as well as the Leagues Leading Scorer and MVP. 13 points is nothing. LeCavalier had no where near as much tallent to play with.
Everything you brought up I refuted, with statistics. Go back and Read it. Two is not several. Get over it. I'm surprised you haven't tried to tell me how much younger Richards is.
Because he has problems with his coach, he has to be a Flake. You brought up the term "great player", I set out to prove that LeCavalier isn't everything you say he is and I did. Whatever problems he had are in the past, he is a solid player and doesn't deserve to be trashed the way you trash him. If you choose to ignore facts and statistics which show he is among the better players in the league, facts such as his recent (last two seasons) play, that is your own business.
How has Richards "vastly out played " LeCavalier? You spout all these interesting tidbits without ever backing them up with numbers. 13 points is all Richards scored more than LeCavalier during the last season. Now that is 13 points while playing with a 29 goal scorer in Modin as well as the Leagues Leading Scorer and MVP. 13 points is nothing. LeCavalier had no where near as much tallent to play with.
You need to go back and read if you think you refuted 1 single thing I posted there. :eek:
Yes he is a flake.
What the @#$% did you "prove" that I said he was??? :confused:
Solid? What's so "solid" about him, and who cares, we're talking about elite players here, not "solid" ones.
As I said, Smyth you dis but Leflake you glorify? :conspire:
You want some more FACTS:
Richards:
1st line center since rookie season
Reg. Season Career PPG avg. .87
Playoffs Career PPG avg.: .91
Conn Smyth winner
'03-04 all-star voting 1st place votes 1, 2nd place votes 5, 3rd 13
2nd line center at best
Reg. Season Career PPG avg. .72
Playoffs Career PPG avg.: .65
'03-04 all-star voting 3rd place votes 1
?
If that isn't "vastly outplayed" what is it???
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 12:32 AM
You need to go back and read if you think you refuted 1 single thing I posted there. :eek:
Yes he is a flake.
What the @#$% did you "prove" that I said he was??? :confused:
Solid? What's so "solid" about him, and who cares, we're talking about elite players here, not "solid" ones.
As I said, Smyth you dis but Leflake you glorify? :conspire:
You want some more FACTS:
Richards:
1st line center since rookie season
Reg. Season Career PPG avg. .87
Playoffs Career PPG avg.: .91
Conn Smyth winner
'03-04 all-star voting 1st place votes 1, 2nd place votes 3rd 13
2nd line center at best
Reg. Season Career PPG avg. .72
Playoffs Career PPG avg.: .65
?
If that isn't "vastly outplayed" what is it???
I did refute everything you threw at me. You inferred Prospal helped LeCavalier more than LeCavalier helped Prospal. I showed you that you were wrong. You ignore it. I put forth statistics which showed his goal scoring ability is amongst some of the best in the league. You ignore it. You are the one who needs to go back and check.
Smyth compared to LeCavalier, please. When was Smyth's last back to back 30 goal seasons. LeCavalier has scored more than Smyth ever did in a single season, and did it with lesser linemates.
Nice how you use carreer Point per game avg. when Lecavalier came into the league as an 18 year old and came to a much weaker team than Richards did as a 20 year old. Yep the 1998-99 Bolts were a powerhouse. LeCavalier had all kinds of opportunity to succeed. Not! This isn't a LeCavalier v. Richards debate. All you want to compare him to is Richards. Richards is very good, and if he happens to out play LeCavalier, that does not equate to LeCavalier being a Flake or a Floater. But if his comparison to Richards is your only valid point, that's a pretty sad argument.
You want to to talk about elite, all I'm saying is he isn't the bum you say he is, but go gather the numbers. Compare and see if LeCavalier isn't in the top 5% for Goals and Points over the last 2 seasons. Include this season for a laugh.
You are the one calling him elite. If it's his salary that bugs you. Put that in with the elite player stats so we can compare who is truly over-paid. Bring forth the numbers to back up your claim. Compare LeCavalier to the top 50 scorers for the last two seasons, and their salaries.
You haven't proven anything yet, here's your chance.
LiAmTrAnSdEmOn
12-01-05, 12:42 AM
While I agree that Richards is a better player right now, I think if Lecavalier can learn to play some consistent defense and use his body he could be a force in the league. I've been watching him a little more closely and noticed that he does slack off in his own end, but I also noticed that in the playoffs something lit a fire under him when he played against the Flyers. He was constantly backchecking and playing good defense. It completely elevated his play and if he could do that every game, he would take that 1st line position from Richards, IMO. But until Lecavalier plays like that more often than not, I will have to say that Richards is better and Lecavalier shouldn't be playing on Team Canada.
I did refute everything you threw at me. You inferred Prospal helped LeCavalier more than LeCavalier helped Prospal. I showed you that you were wrong. You ignore it. I put forth statistics which showed his goal scoring ability is amongst some of the best in the league. You ignore it. You are the one who needs to go back and check.
Smyth compared to LeCavalier, please. When was Smyth's last back to back 30 goal seasons. LeCavalier has scored more than Smyth ever did in a single season, and did it with lesser linemates.
Nice how you use carreer Point per game avg. when Lecavalier came into the league as an 18 year old and came to a much weaker team than Richards did as a 20 year old. Yep the 1998-99 Bolts were a powerhouse. LeCavalier had all kinds of opportunity to succeed. Not! This isn't a LeCavalier v. Richards debate. All you want to compare him to is Richards. Richards is very good, and if he happens to out play LeCavalier, that does not equate to LeCavalier being a Flake or a Floater. But if his comparison to Richards is your only valid point, that's a pretty sad argument.
You want to to talk about elite, all I'm saying is he isn't the bum you say he is, but go gather the numbers. Compare and see if LeCavalier isn't in the top 5% for Goals and Points over the last 2 seasons. Include this season for a laugh.
You are the one calling him elite. If it's his salary that bugs you. Put that in with the elite player stats so we can compare who is truly over-paid. Bring forth the numbers to back up your claim. Compare LeCavalier to the top 50 scorers for the last two seasons, and their salaries.
You haven't proven anything yet, here's your chance.
Uh I never said that at all, I simply said that Leflake demanded Prospal back, why would such a great player need such a poor linemate??? A linemate who's outscored him both this year and the last time they played together btw, as have several of his teammates.
Funny how you don't want to argue him vs Richards but keep asking me to prove my argument in that regard? That is until I do then you're the one who wants to ignore. :no:
Again I didn't say he's a bum and you know it, I said he's overhyped, overpaid and overrated, and he is. Again, prove why he's worth what he is, you can do the comparison just as well, so go ahead, you're the one taking issue with my assertion, so "prove me wrong".
Oh that's right, you think you already have. :conspire: :laughing:
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 12:51 AM
While I agree that Richards is a better player right now, I think if Lecavalier can learn to play some consistent defense and use his body he could be a force in the league. I've been watching him a little more closely and noticed that he does slack off in his own end, but I also noticed that in the playoffs something lit a fire under him when he played against the Flyers. He was constantly backchecking and playing good defense. It completely elevated his play and if he could do that every game, he would take that 1st line position from Richards, IMO. But until Lecavalier plays like that more often than not, I will have to say that Richards is better and Lecavalier shouldn't be playing on Team Canada.
It's not about LeCavalier and Richards and who is better . It's about LeCavalier being called a floater and a flake when he is clearly one of the best young players in the game.
LeCavalier has to play himself OFF Team Canada not onto it. At a point a game pace so far, he will be there. So will Richards and St. Louis.
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 12:54 AM
Uh I never said that at all, I simply said that Leflake demanded Prospal back, why would such a great player need such a poor linemate??? A linemate who's outscored him both this year and the last time they played together btw, as have several of his teammates.
Funny how you don't want to argue him vs Richards but keep asking me to prove my argument in that regard? That is until I do then you're the one who wants to ignore. :no:
Again I didn't say he's a bum and you know it, I said he's overhyped, overpaid and overrated, and he is. Again, prove why he's worth what he is, you can do the comparison just as well, so go ahead, you're the one taking issue with my assertion, so "prove me wrong".
Oh that's right, you think you already have. :conspire: :laughing:
When was the last time Richards led the team. :rolleyes:
When was the last time Richards led the team. :rolleyes:
wtf does that have to do with my post. :confused:
He outscored Lecavaflake last season, in the playoffs and so far this season, as well as during their careers despite Leflake having several years headstart.
But I thought this wasn't about Richards? :conspire:
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 1:02 AM
Perhaps you should check your facts. 2 seasons difference. Richards was an elite scorer in the QMJHL. 29 teams are still asking how they passed him up.
I've said Richards was just as good or better before he skated in the NHL.
But whether or not Richards is better has no bearing on the fact LeCavalier is one of the best young centers in the game today. He made Prospal a Point a game Player, and is doing it again. If you put St. Louis on LeCavalier's line, like magic, it becomes the top line.
Just to prove you havent been paying attention. It is not a Richards / LeCavalier issue.
Just to prove you havent been paying attention. It is not a Richards / LeCavalier issue.
Preceded by:
When was the last time Richards led the team.
:conspire: :laughing:
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 1:19 AM
What the previous post was trying to show was that if you had been paying attention to where I said, and I Quote again."I've said Richards was just as good or better before he skated in the NHL." If you had paid any attention to that you might have been able to make an actual argument as to LeCavaliers supposed over-rating instead of trying to convince me to compare the two.
Richards led the Tampa bay Lightning in scoring with 62 points the year LeCavalier had all his problems.FYI. My point was Richards was outscored by teammates as well, the past two seasons. You pull it out as a bad thing for Vinny and ignore it for Richards, and I'm calling you on it.
Now do you have any real reasons as to why LeCavalier is not among the leagues top Players. Other than Richards being the number one center.
What the previous post was trying to show was that if you had been paying attention to where I said, and I Quote again."I've said Richards was just as good or better before he skated in the NHL." If you had paid any attention to that you might have been able to make an actual argument as to LeCavaliers supposed over-rating instead of trying to convince me to compare the two.
Richards led the Tampa bay Lightning in scoring with 62 points the year LeCavalier had all his problems.FYI. My point was Richards was outscored by teammates as well, the past two seasons. You pull it out as a bad thing for Vinny and ignore it for Richards, and I'm calling you on it.
Now do you have any real reasons as to why LeCavalier is not among the leagues top Players. Other than Richards being the number one center.
Dude, what the previous post shows is that you don't really know what you want to argue about, when you feel like it, it's Richards vs Leflake, when you don't like how that's going, it's "not about Richards". Seriously man, it's beyond comical at this point.
Richards got beat by the Art Ross, Hart and Pearson winner, and he helped him get there.
Leflake? Without Prospal he wasn't close, even with him Prospal outscores him. So how good is Prospal btw?
Leflake is not among the league's best for the reasons I've already stated, you don't have to agree, but that's the way I see it.
One thing I've noticed is that if you don't like a guy (Savard, who makes a fraction of what Leflake makes and is also outscoring him again btw, but it's Leflake who's an "automatic" and the thought of Savard going is shocking to you :confused: ) it's ok for you to slag the hell out of him with all sorts of rhetoric (and notice I didn't get all bent out of shape about it the way you are with Leflake, I simply stated why I disagreed and left it at that) but you sure can't handle it when somebody else has a low opinion of somebody that you're high on.
As I've said repeatedly, you like him, fine, until he proves otherwise, to me he's an overrated flake. You're just going to have to accept that, sorry. :coffee:
Iced Tea
12-01-05, 2:20 AM
I thought this rather enjoyable discussion deserved its own thread within the Trash Talk section. Please continue as both sides are bringing up some rather good points. :D
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 2:29 PM
Dude, what the previous post shows is that you don't really know what you want to argue about, when you feel like it, it's Richards vs Leflake, when you don't like how that's going, it's "not about Richards". Seriously man, it's beyond comical at this point.
Richards got beat by the Art Ross, Hart and Pearson winner, and he helped him get there.
Leflake? Without Prospal he wasn't close, even with him Prospal outscores him. So how good is Prospal btw?
Leflake is not among the league's best for the reasons I've already stated, you don't have to agree, but that's the way I see it.
One thing I've noticed is that if you don't like a guy (Savard, who makes a fraction of what Leflake makes and is also outscoring him again btw, but it's Leflake who's an "automatic" and the thought of Savard going is shocking to you :confused: ) it's ok for you to slag the hell out of him with all sorts of rhetoric (and notice I didn't get all bent out of shape about it the way you are with Leflake, I simply stated why I disagreed and left it at that) but you sure can't handle it when somebody else has a low opinion of somebody that you're high on.
As I've said repeatedly, you like him, fine, until he proves otherwise, to me he's an overrated flake. You're just going to have to accept that, sorry. :coffee:
You are the one trying to make this a Richards v. LeCavalier thing. :hammer2: The only time I've drawn comparisons is in defense to some rediculous statement you made about one or the other.
So Richards helps the Art Ross Trophy winner and only gets 5 more points than the year before? So what. LeCavalier gets a linemate who is only half as good and he out scores Richards. See you did it again. I have to Defend LeCavalier from some whacked out comparison YOU brought up.
How is it when St. Louis scores a carreer high it is all thanks to Richards but when LeCavalier does the same for Prospal, it means nothing? See again! It is YOU who brings up the comparison. All I do is debunk your comment.
You keep saying LeCavalier is not among the Leagues Best. How about some numbers to back that up? Like I said compare and see if LeCavalier is not in the top 5% of the league for Goals and Points over the last 2 seasons.
As for Savard I made one or two posts about my dislike for him, unlike the constant ragging you were and continue to lay on LeCavalier. Go back and see how many times you ragged on LeCavalier and I said NOTHING. It was only after your repeated and unwarranted posts of a venomous nature that I stepped in to defend a player who is among the leagues best young tallent.
You want to Compare LeCavalier's line mates to Savards? :laughing:
Hossa and Kovalchuk are made better because of Savard right? :rolleyes:
Not the other way around. Playing with two of the leagues best snipers has no impact on a center's assist total. :shrug:
Well it's like anything someone says. You have to consider the source. You are obviously blind to the facts for some reason. So there is no point in beating a dead horse. I have asked for facts to back you up and the only figures you have provided was a carreer point per game average that compares a player who made the league as an 18 yr old and a player who did not enter the league until 20, and was been given better linemates to play with. Who is better, Richards or LeCavalier, seems to be your only argument, and since that is not the point, I guess this debate with you is pointless.
You are the one trying to make this a Richards v. LeCavalier thing. :hammer2: The only time I've drawn comparisons is in defense to some rediculous statement you made about one or the other.
Yeah, sure, whatever you say. That's why you've repeatedly contradicted that very statement. .:laughing:
So Richards helps the Art Ross Trophy winner and only gets 5 more points than the year before? So what. LeCavalier gets a linemate who is only half as good and he out scores Richards. See you did it again. I have to Defend LeCavalier from some whacked out comparison YOU brought up.
Oops, so sorry I made such a good argument you had to defend (poorly) against it, my bad.
Q: if Prospal is only "half as good", yet he outscores Leflake, what does that make Leflake?
How is it when St. Louis scores a carreer high it is all thanks to Richards but when LeCavalier does the same for Prospal, it means nothing?
I never said that and you know it. I said Richards helped St.Louis, and he did, and I never said it meant nothing either, I simply said Prospal outscored him, and is doing so again. You asked for FACTS, those are FACTS.
You keep saying LeCavalier is not among the Leagues Best. How about some numbers to back that up? Like I said compare and see if LeCavalier is not in the top 5% of the league for Goals and Points over the last 2 seasons.
What I said was, and I quote " he's an overrated, overpaid flake", Yashin, and Jagr score more than Leflake does, doesn't mean they're not as well.
As for Savard I made one or two posts about my dislike for him, unlike the constant ragging you were and continue to lay on LeCavalier. Go back and see how many times you ragged on LeCavalier and I said NOTHING. It was only after your repeated and unwarranted posts of a venomous nature that I stepped in to defend a player who is among the leagues best young tallent.
Sorry but you're wrong there, if you had simply stated your opinion of Leflake and left me to have mine as I did with you and Savard, this would have ended long ago, but obviously you are invcapable of letting me have my own opinion about Leflake, well TFB for you.
You want to Compare LeCavalier's line mates to Savards? :laughing:
Hossa and Kovalchuk are made better because of Savard right? :rolleyes:
Not the other way around. Playing with two of the leagues best snipers has no impact on a center's assist total. :shrug:
Of course it is mutually beneficial to have a topnotch playmaker on a line with top-notch snipers, I said that right from the get-go if you recall how this whole thing started. Did Oates help Hull or just the other way around? :conspire: As I said before, I don't think there's much of a chance Leflake would help a sniper score, that's not his game, he's more of an individual scorer, one of the reasons I left him off my team, again, if you don't like my reasoning, that's your problem, I'm not going to change my mind about it just because you don't agree, get over it already.
Well it's like anything someone says. You have to consider the source. You are obviously blind to the facts for some reason. So there is no point in beating a dead horse. I have asked for facts to back you up and the only figures you have provided was a carreer point per game average that compares a player who made the league as an 18 yr old and a player who did not enter the league until 20, and was been given better linemates to play with. Who is better, Richards or LeCavalier, seems to be your only argument, and since that is not the point, I guess this debate with you is pointless.
:laughing: I suppose that's me "forcing" you to talk about Richards again. :rolleyes: :laughing:
Continue to make it personal, looks good on you. :thumb:
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 5:00 PM
I never said that and you know it. I said Richards helped St.Louis, and he did, and I never said it meant nothing either, I simply said Prospal outscored him, and is doing so again. You asked for FACTS, those are FACTS.
Richards really helped St. Louis. HE had a whole extra 5 points from the season before when St. Louis only had 70pts as opposed to his 94 pts in his MVP season. Looks like St. Louis helped himself, because Richards sure didn't kick it up a notch.
Q: if Prospal is only "half as good", yet he outscores Leflake, what does that make Leflake?
Prospal is only half as good as St. Louis, and yet when Prospal plays with LeCavalier, LeCavalier out scores Richards.
What I said was, and I quote " he's an overrated, overpaid flake", Yashin, and Jagr score more than Leflake does, doesn't mean they're not as well.
If he's so over rated and over paid, lets see some numbers to back it up.
Sorry but you're wrong there, if you had simply stated your opinion of Leflake and left me to have mine as I did with you and Savard, this would have ended long ago, but obviously you are invcapable of letting me have my own opinion about Leflake, well TFB for you.
You know what, I let you have your opinion, and you expessed it several times, but you didn't stop with a simple opinion. You continuously trashed LeCavalier on repeated posts. It was uncalled for. I am still waiting for proof he is over paid and over rated .
Of course it is mutually beneficial to have a topnotch playmaker on a line with top-notch snipers, I said that right from the get-go if you recall how this whole thing started. Did Oates help Hull or just the other way around? As I said before, I don't think there's much of a chance Leflake would help a sniper score, that's not his game, he's more of an individual scorer, one of the reasons I left him off my team, again, if you don't like my reasoning, that's your problem, I'm not going to change my mind about it just because you don't agree, get over it already.
Your reasoning is flawed, baseless and without fact. Your only argument is Richards is better which has nothing to do with LeCavalier being good himself. You won't change your mind because you refuse to acknowledge the facts put forth, which show that LeCavalier is among the top players in the League. And since he is one of the top players he deserves to be payed as such. You want to run around calling people over-rated, have more facts than his position on the second line to back you up. Either bring some valid numbers or go away.
Richards really helped St. Louis. HE had a whole extra 5 points from the season before when St. Louis only had 70pts as opposed to his 94 pts in his MVP season. Looks like St. Louis helped himself, because Richards sure didn't kick it up a notch.
You're actually saying Richards being his linemate did not help St. Louis at all.:eyebug: :conspire: :laughing:
Prospal is only half as good as St. Louis, and yet when Prospal plays with LeCavalier, LeCavalier out scores Richards.
Again, try and follow, if Prospal is "half as good as St. Louis" and yet outscores Leflake when they play together... what does that say about Leflake, and also, is Prospal "among the top players in the league"?
If he's so over rated and over paid, lets see some numbers to back it up.
Show me the ratings "numbers". As far as pay, you said yourself, he was overpaid, if you've changed your mind, I'm sure you can do the numbers just as well as I can, so go ahead, prove he's not overpaid. :laughing:
You know what, I let you have your opinion, and you expessed it several times, but you didn't stop with a simple opinion. You continuously trashed LeCavalier on repeated posts. It was uncalled for. I am still waiting for proof he is over paid and over rated .
Whether you think it is uncalled for or not is not my problem, fact is it is MY opinion, so as I've told you repeatedly, you're just going to have to live with it. :no:
Your reasoning is flawed, baseless and without fact. Your only argument is Richards is better which has nothing to do with LeCavalier being good himself. You won't change your mind because you refuse to acknowledge the facts put forth, which show that LeCavalier is among the top players in the League. And since he is one of the top players he deserves to be payed as such. You want to run around calling people over-rated, have more facts than his position on the second line to back you up. Either bring some valid numbers or go away.
Yes, just because I disagree with you I suppose. :rolleyes: It is not my only argument and you know it. I won't change my mind because it is MY mind, not yours, get it? Man who the @#$% do you think you are trying to tell me or anyone else what they are allowed to think and not to think?
Do you think you run this board or something telling me where I should go here and what I should post/not post?
Get a grip there (Edited by Iced Tea)
And one more thing,
Let
it
go.
:wave:
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 6:24 PM
You're actually saying Richards being his linemate did not help St. Louis at all.
I'm saying St. Louis would have scored those points with either center. If St. Louis' success was dependant on Richasrds so much, how come Richards point total didn't increase by a similar 24 point margin that St. Louis' did.
Again, try and follow, if Prospal is "half as good as St. Louis" and yet outscores Leflake when they play together... what does that say about Leflake, and also, is Prospal "among the top players in the league"?
It says that LeCavalier isn't this one dimensional me first offensive player you say he is, but does have the tallent to make those around him better. Look at prospal with LeCavalier and without. 25 point difference when he went to the Ducks.
Show me the ratings "numbers". As far as pay, you said yourself, he was overpaid, if you've changed your mind, I'm sure you can do the numbers just as well as I can, so go ahead, prove he's not overpaid.
But still I would like you to prove what you are saying. If he is over paid prove it.
Whether you think it is uncalled for or not is not my problem, fact is it is MY opinion, so as I've told you repeatedly, you're just going to have to live with it.
An opinion is one thing Constant bashing is another. All I am saying is back up your rhetoric.
Yes, just because I disagree with you I suppose. It is not my only argument and you know it. I won't change my mind because it is MY mind, not yours, get it? Man who the @#$% do you think you are trying to tell me or anyone else what they are allowed to think and not to think?
Am I telling you what to think? No.
Am I showing reasons as to why your conclussions maybe wrong? Yes.
You were runnig a player down and I called you on it plain and simple. You carry on about him being over paid and yet NEVER ONCE did you mention his Salary. You called him Over-hyped, and yet never speak of the incident that put such huge pressure on him. If you want to say a player is this or that fine. Just back up what you say.
Do you think you run this board or something telling me where I should go here and what I should post/not post?
Get a grip there Mussolini.
And one more thing,
Let
it
go.
OOOO you know a historical figure! Next thing you know you will post a fact.
I like how you "forgot" to answer the key question, being:
Is Prospal "among the top players in the league" ? :rolleyes:
Lecavaflake is one of the most overrated overpaid players in the game, that's my opinion, I'll express it as much as I like, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. :boogie:
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 10:31 PM
I like how you "forgot" to answer the key question, being:
Is Prospal "among the top players in the league" ? :rolleyes:
Lecavaflake is one of the most overrated overpaid players in the game, that's my opinion, I'll express it as much as I like, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. :boogie:
Prospal scores 50 odd points when not with LeCavalier, and is a point a game player when with him. That says alot for LeCavalier's ability to improve those around him. He is the difference between Prospal being an average scorer or one of the leading scorers in the league. But I wouln't call Prospal one of the top players in the league, but his linemate must be pretty damned good, to cause so much improvement. I fail to see how LeCavalier outscoring Richards while playing with inferior line mates serves to forward your point of view.
Ya keep expressing with out ever backing it up. I got an opinion for ya...:wicked:
Prospal scores 50 odd points when not with LeCavalier, and is a point a game player when with him. That says alot for LeCavalier's ability to improve those around him. He is the difference between Prospal being an average scorer or one of the leading scorers in the league. But I wouln't call Prospal one of the top players in the league, but his linemate must be pretty damned good, to cause so much improvement. I fail to see how LeCavalier outscoring Richards while playing with inferior line mates serves to forward your point of view.
Ya keep expressing with out ever backing it up.
More "backup" for you:
Prospal has outscored Leflake every time they've played together to the tune of 167 points vs Flakey's 143, but even though Leflake is "among the league's best players", because of his stats, Prospal isn't. :conspire: :laughing: :thumb:
I got an opinion for ya...:wicked:
:cry: :snore: :cry: :snore:
charlio lemieux
12-01-05, 11:34 PM
More "backup" for you:
Prospal has outscored Leflake every time they've played together to the tune of 167 points vs Flakey's 143, but even though Leflake is "among the league's best players", because of his stats, Prospal isn't. :conspire: :laughing: :thumb:
:cry: :snore: :cry: :snore:
Prospal's carreer high is 55 points without LeCavalier and 79 with him. I don't see Prospal improving anybody elses game by over 20 points the way LeCavalier improves Prospals output. Prospal needs LeCavalier to be anywhere near the best he can be. Where as the loss of Prospal only translated into 1 less goal and 11 fewer assists. Cleary Prospals impact on LeCavalier's game is no where near as big as LeCavalier's impact is on Prospals game. Making those around you better is the surest sign of anybody who as good at what they do. LeCavalier does this.
Even with LeCavalier's meltdown season he has put up 5 consecutive 20+ goal seasons, capped with back to back 30 goal years. Prospal has broke the 20 goal mark twice in his 8 year carreer. Once with Cappy Alfie and once with Vinny LeCavalier. With LeCavalier, Prospal had an extra 24 points over his best Ottawa season. There is a reason that Prospals stats don't make him one of the leagues best and that is because he doesn't produce on his own. LeCavalier still scored 32 goals, when Prospal was gone.
FTR:
Richards - 3 x 20+goal seasons 20,21,26, has played 4 NHL seasons
St.Louis - 2 x 20+goal seasons 33,38, has played 6 NHL seasons
Prospal - 2 x 20+goal seasons 22,22, has played 8 NHL seasons
LeCavalier 5 x 20+goal seasons 25,23,20,33,32, has played 6 NHL seasons
Hitting the twenty goal mark 5 out of your first 6 years is not an easy task. Since he hasn't even reached his full potential yet I think a case can be made regarding LeCavalier, as one of the league best, but not Prospal.
Prospal's carreer high is 55 points without LeCavalier and 79 with him. I don't see Prospal improving anybody elses game by over 20 points the way LeCavalier improves Prospals output. Prospal needs LeCavalier to be anywhere near the best he can be. Where as the loss of Prospal only translated into 1 less goal and 11 fewer assists. Cleary Prospals impact on LeCavalier's game is no where near as big as LeCavalier's impact is on Prospals game. Making those around you better is the surest sign of anybody who as good at what they do. LeCavalier does this.
Even with LeCavalier's meltdown season he has put up 5 consecutive 20+ goal seasons, capped with back to back 30 goal years. Prospal has broke the 20 goal mark twice in his 8 year carreer. Once with Cappy Alfie and once with Vinny LeCavalier. With LeCavalier, Prospal had an extra 24 points over his best Ottawa season. There is a reason that Prospals stats don't make him one of the leagues best and that is because he doesn't produce on his own. LeCavalier still scored 32 goals, when Prospal was gone.
FTR:
Richards - 3 x 20+goal seasons 20,21,26, has played 4 NHL seasons
St.Louis - 2 x 20+goal seasons 33,38, has played 6 NHL seasons
Prospal - 2 x 20+goal seasons 22,22, has played 8 NHL seasons
LeCavalier 5 x 20+goal seasons 25,23,20,33,32, has played 6 NHL seasons
Hitting the twenty goal mark 5 out of your first 6 years is not an easy task. Since he hasn't even reached his full potential yet I think a case can be made regarding LeCavalier, as one of the league best, but not Prospal.
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...
You've got every excuse in the world not to call Prospal "among the league's best", despite superior scoring to Leflake who is an "automatic" for that category because you say he scores so much. :shrug:
Sorry
that
just
don't
add
up
no matter how much you spin it. :no:
I suppose Leflake coming in 4th on a far superior team while Prospal was 2nd (and what 10 points back?) on a pitiful offensive one doesn't factor into your "math" at all. :conspire: :rolleyes:
If Leflake is so superior to Prospal why does Prospal outscore him and by a fair margin?
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000552002.html
Oh look, Richards (a rookie) vastly outplaying Leflake (the 3rd year guy) while playing with Prospal and Andreychuk while Leflake did NOTHING for St.Louis' game. Again, Leflake's one demand was that they get Prospal back, if he's so good and only makes those around him better, why does he NEED Prospal so badly? :conspire:
charlio lemieux
12-02-05, 1:08 PM
You don't get it, he doesn't need Prospal. Prospal is just better than what Tampa Bay has given LeCavalier to play with. Richards gets St. Louis and LeCavalier is expected to do it by himself. You know why? Because he can do it by himself. Maybe if his linemates were as tallented as he is LeCavalier's numbers would be more like Sakic's, but keeping him with players like Prospal is only going to be good enough to make him a point a game player. How terrible, to only be able to score a point a game while playing with a carreer best 22 goal scorer.
St. Louis scores 38 goals and 94 points, and Richards only manages to beat LeCavalier's point total by 1, from when LeCavalier had Prospal who scored 22 goals and had 79 points, a carreer best. LeCavalier had 78 points. So how is it that when given a linemate who is clearly better, the best in the league last season, Richards only manages to score 1 more point than when LeCavalier played with a weaker linemate in Prospal. Even if Richards is better it is not by much.
As for St. Louis, he had a conversation with Tortorella, expressing a desire to do more and have more responsibliity. He expressed a desire to improve his work ethic, and wanted the coach to give him the chance to succeed. That was in his 70 point season. When it comes to St. Louis, his improved play is because of his own personal hard work and effort. If it had relied so much on Richards why didn't Richards numbers go way up right beside St. Louis. Turning Prospal into a PPG player increased LeCavaliers totals by more than 5 points. And that's a whole 5 point increase while playing with the League MVP, and Scoring Leader. St. Louis was not dependant on Richards for his success. Any tallented center, of the Richards or LeCavalier type, would have been enough for St. Louis to have had a carreer year. He was determined.
Finally some numbers to back up your gibberish. It must have been hard for you to figure out that if you pick the year LeCavalier had all is problems with the media and management, it would be in your favour. How about the next season where LeCavalier out scores Richards, in both Goals and points. But hold on I have brought those stats up 15 posts ago. You are grasping at straws.
BTW:
1. Your Facts are in Error It was not Richards rookie year. His rookie season was 2000-2001, not the following year, which is link you posted.
2. Prospal scored 54 points playing with Fedorov and Sykora. Fedorov and Sykora. What a down grade. It was a 25 point down grade for Prospal to go from LeCavalier to Fedorov. Thank you for bringing that up, it is a good indicator of how much LeCavalier actually helped Prospal. It even opens the door to the question: Is LeCavalier a better center than Fedorov? If Prospal was the meassuring stick it would appear so. But I am not saying he is or isn't better, just that everytime you try to prove a point you only strengthen my argument that Lecavalier is one of the top players in the game. He improves the play of those around him as the best players do.
You still have yet to post his over-paid salary, or what was said to cause him to be over-hyped(do you even know?). They are the two strongest factual arguments you have and you ignore them, to pursue some personal bashing quest on LeCavalier.
You don't get it, he doesn't need Prospal. Prospal is just better than what Tampa Bay has given LeCavalier to play with. Richards gets St. Louis and LeCavalier is expected to do it by himself. You know why? Because he can do it by himself. Maybe if his linemates were as tallented as he is LeCavalier's numbers would be more like Sakic's, but keeping him with players like Prospal is only going to be good enough to make him a point a game player. How terrible, to only be able to score a point a game while playing with a carreer best 22 goal scorer.
St. Louis scores 38 goals and 94 points, and Richards only manages to beat LeCavalier's point total by 1, from when LeCavalier had Prospal who scored 22 goals and had 79 points, a carreer best. LeCavalier had 78 points. So how is it that when given a linemate who is clearly better, the best in the league last season, Richards only manages to score 1 more point than when LeCavalier played with a weaker linemate in Prospal. Even if Richards is better it is not by much.
As for St. Louis, he had a conversation with Tortorella, expressing a desire to do more and have more responsibliity. He expressed a desire to improve his work ethic, and wanted the coach to give him the chance to succeed. That was in his 70 point season. When it comes to St. Louis, his improved play is because of his own personal hard work and effort. If it had relied so much on Richards why didn't Richards numbers go way up right beside St. Louis. Turning Prospal into a PPG player increased LeCavaliers totals by more than 5 points. And that's a whole 5 point increase while playing with the League MVP, and Scoring Leader. St. Louis was not dependant on Richards for his success. Any tallented center, of the Richards or LeCavalier type, would have been enough for St. Louis to have had a carreer year. He was determined.
Finally some numbers to back up your gibberish. It must have been hard for you to figure out that if you pick the year LeCavalier had all is problems with the media and management, it would be in your favour. How about the next season where LeCavalier out scores Richards, in both Goals and points. But hold on I have brought those stats up 15 posts ago. You are grasping at straws.
BTW:
1. Your Facts are in Error It was not Richards rookie year. His rookie season was 2000-2001, not the following year, which is link you posted.
2. Prospal scored 54 points playing with Fedorov and Sykora. Fedorov and Sykora. What a down grade. It was a 25 point down grade for Prospal to go from LeCavalier to Fedorov. Thank you for bringing that up, it is a good indicator of how much LeCavalier actually helped Prospal. It even opens the door to the question: Is LeCavalier a better center than Fedorov? If Prospal was the meassuring stick it would appear so. But I am not saying he is or isn't better, just that everytime you try to prove a point you only strengthen my argument that Lecavalier is one of the top players in the game. He improves the play of those around him as the best players do.
You still have yet to post his over-paid salary, or what was said to cause him to be over-hyped(do you even know?). They are the two strongest factual arguments you have and you ignore them, to pursue some personal bashing quest on LeCavalier.
Wow, what a steaming pile of blah blah blah without ever addressing my points or questions. :rolleyes:
Prospal with a vastly undercheiving Fedorov and Sykora you mean? Funny how you left that part out, or did those two light it up and leave Prospal behind and I missed it. :rolleyes: :conspire:
Again, if Leflake is one of the top players in the game based on his numbers, what does that make Prospal?
A: blah blah blah blah blah without ever realizing that it doesn't add up.
We can keep at this as long as you like, but just know that I will continue to post whatever I like about whoever I like, however I like, no matter how you feel about it or what you have to say about it, so just keep on laying the boots to that long dead horse and I'll just keep on sitting back and laughing about it. :laughing:
charlio lemieux
12-02-05, 4:35 PM
I am sorry you cannot understand my arguments. As I assure you to those than can, they will find many a valid point within.
I am sorry you cannot understand my arguments. As I assure you to those than can, they will find many a valid point within.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Lecavalier isn't a sniper at all...
Hes definitely a force, and could end up in the top 10 in scoring this season...hes really developed into a solid player all around, the scary part?
Hes only 25 and is still getting better.
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