Crosby absolutely does not deserve to be on the Olympic team this year!

[wildboy26]

I just want to say now if Crosby makes the Olympic team, even as a 13th forward it would be a total crock! He absolutely does not deserve to make this team not even close. He is not one of the best scorers yet, so does not deserve to be on a scoring line, he is not a great checker compared to some of the others, and he certainly cant be on the defensive line or forward line. There are other players more deserving of being the 13th forward. If he does make the team it will obviously be due only to politics, and Lemieux' influence, and I would be disgusted with the choice. Staal and Spezza are both far more worthy if they pick a youngster as the 13th forward.

[Newfie John]

And Nash is?

[wildboy26]

Yes, absolutely Nash is more worthy than Crosby, as are Heatley, Spezza, Bertuzzi, Lemieux, Doan, Smyth, Gagne, Iginla, Thorton, Richards, St. Louis, LeCavier, Staal, Spezza, Draper, Maltby, Morrow, and possably Marleau and Briere. He shouldnt even be close to making the team considering there are many more than can contribute far more than he can in various ways.

[wildboy26]

I also keep reading if Lemieux gives up his spot it automaticaly goes to Crosby, what kind of ridiculous logic is that, if Lemieux offers to give his spot up, he is the one that gets to determine who it should go to, rather than somebody more worthy that Grezxty or Quinn might choose?

[Yoata]

Yes, absolutely Nash is more worthy than Crosby, as are Heatley, Spezza, Bertuzzi, Lemieux, Doan, Smyth, Gagne, Iginla, Thorton, Richards, St. Louis, LeCavier, Staal, Spezza, Draper, Maltby, Morrow, and possably Marleau and Briere. He shouldnt even be close to making the team considering there are many more than can contribute far more than he can in various ways.

Hmmm, last time I checked Crosby was 7th overall in NHL scorers among Canadians, and much of that scoring has been recent. He's getting better every game and is already dominant. Maltby, Morrow, Marleau and Briere??? Even Draper (and I'm a Wings fan) who I had as a spare at the start of the season, has really not been very good at all this season, neither has Floatuzzi (for the last 2 seasons actually) or St. Louis. Crosby is the best skater Canada has and should be an absolute game-breaker on the big ice, especially if they can't obstruct him.

Don't know when the deadline is, but I'll save my final choices until then, but right now I don't think I'd take Yzerman, who will likely bow out himself if he doesn't improve dramatically. Shanahan with his experience should be a lock the way he's playing, Lemieux is borderline, will have to see how he's playing. Even Sakic is struggling, though playing well enough that his experience and leadership will be required, especially if Yzerman and Lemieux aren't there.

[wildboy26]

Hmmm, last time I checked Crosby was 7th overall in NHL scorers among Canadians, and much of that scoring has been recent. He's getting better every game and is already dominant. Maltby, Morrow, Marleau and Briere??? Even Draper (and I'm a Wings fan) who I had as a spare at the start of the season, has really not been very good at all this season, neither has Floatuzzi (for the last 2 seasons actually) or St. Louis. Crosby is the best skater Canada has and should be an absolute game-breaker on the big ice, especially if they can't obstruct him.

Don't know when the deadline is, but I'll save my final choices until then, but right now I don't think I'd take Yzerman, who will likely bow out himself if he doesn't improve dramatically. Shanahan with his experience should be a lock the way he's playing, Lemieux is borderline, will have to see how he's playing. Even Sakic is struggling, though playing well enough that his experience and leadership will be required, especially if Yzerman and Lemieux aren't there.

He is 7th in scoring but consider that some of the names below him are virtual locks for the team-Iginla, Sakic, Richards, Lemieux if he chooses, so he is really lower than that if you are looking at where he is in scoring as a means of where he fits in in his bid to make the team. Somebody like St. Louis who is below him now, should still be above him based on his 2004 season unless he is playing really poorly which he isnt. Somebody like Smyth is not far below him, playing on an Edmonton Oilers team which does not have the same top line forwards Crosby have to play with, and all hsi experience playing for Team Canadas, he should be clearly ahead as well. So really when you consider the people not ahead of him, 7th is not high enough to warrant making the team as an 18-year old. Another top scorer, Nash is not playing right now, somebody who likely would be above him. Some others do not have the benefit of playing constantly on 5-on-5, power play units, with the quality of forwards/offensive defencemen he is: Recchi, Lemieux, Gonchar, etc.....That puts the perspective alot differently.

Crosby is not the best skater, that is a load of rubbish. I know that is one of his strengths but LeCavier, Nash, Thorton, Sakic, Iginla, Kariya, St. Louis, Gagne, Staal, Spezza, and Heatley, are all superior skaters to him at this point. If you had a secret ballot among NHL players who was the NHLs very best skater, and no Penguins were allowed to vote, I doubt he would get more than 3 votes, perhaps not that.

As for people like Draper or Maltby, they would fit different roles. They would be checking forwads, something Crosby would not be. Briere, Marleau, and Morrow, arent too serious considerations for the team at this point, however their experience in international events in the last few years, should put them over Crosby unless he is a dominant player in the NHL which he is NOT. You are wrong on that part too, Crosby is not becoming dominant, he has had only 2 3-point games all year, he is not somebody who can take over a game the way alot of the players I listed can. They will not need 12 scoring forwards, they have enough scoring forwards better than Crosby, and they have others who score less than Crosby who would fit better in other roles than he possably could right now. He does not deserve to be on the team, not even close.

Also if you think Shanahan is going to be on the team all I have to say is.
:laughing: :laughing:

[PDO]

Spezza a superior skater to Crosby?

I had to stop reading and take a laughing break.

Shanahan is lighting the world on fire, and I think he's actaully becoming an extremely likely player to make the team being that Yzerman is almost guarenteed to not be on the team, and if Lemieux is on the team it'd be in a very limited role. That role of course would be being on the halfboards - as there is no one in the NHL who's better at him than that.

Crosby is leading his team in points right now, tied with Palffy and ahead of Lemeiux, Recchi and Gonchar. Crosby's numbers are also absolute crap when he's not on the ice with Palffy - just some food for thought :].

That said; I don't think Crosby should be on the team, only because there are other young studs who are just as deserving, but have more experience. I'm looking at Jason Spezza and Eric Staal.

[wildboy26]

If Yzerman does not play, and especialy if Lemieux does not either, I think having Shanahan as a 13th forward for his leadership would be a good idea. However I have read nothing that hints at him making the team is all, in fact he isnt even mentioned.

Spezza is an unbelievable skater, he is showing it off this year. I love watching him play, and I did not realize he was this good before this year.
Yes he is a superior skater, and superior player to Crosby at this point.

[Yoata]

He is 7th in scoring but consider that some of the names below him are virtual locks for the team-Iginla, Sakic, Richards, Lemieux if he chooses, so he is really lower than that if you are looking at where he is in scoring as a means of where he fits in in his bid to make the team. Somebody like St. Louis who is below him now, should still be above him based on his 2004 season unless he is playing really poorly which he isnt. Somebody like Smyth is not far below him, playing on an Edmonton Oilers team which does not have the same top line forwards Crosby have to play with, and all hsi experience playing for Team Canadas, he should be clearly ahead as well. So really when you consider the people not ahead of him, 7th is not high enough to warrant making the team as an 18-year old. Another top scorer, Nash is not playing right now, somebody who likely would be above him. Some others do not have the benefit of playing constantly on 5-on-5, power play units, with the quality of forwards/offensive defencemen he is: Recchi, Lemieux, Gonchar, etc.....That puts the perspective alot differently.

Crosby is not the best skater, that is a load of rubbish. I know that is one of his strengths but LeCavier, Nash, Thorton, Sakic, Iginla, Kariya, St. Louis, Gagne, Staal, Spezza, and Heatley, are all superior skaters to him at this point. If you had a secret ballot among NHL players who was the NHLs very best skater, and no Penguins were allowed to vote, I doubt he would get more than 3 votes, perhaps not that.

As for people like Draper or Maltby, they would fit different roles. They would be checking forwads, something Crosby would not be. Briere, Marleau, and Morrow, arent too serious considerations for the team at this point, however their experience in international events in the last few years, should put them over Crosby unless he is a dominant player in the NHL which he is NOT. You are wrong on that part too, Crosby is not becoming dominant, he has had only 2 3-point games all year, he is not somebody who can take over a game the way alot of the players I listed can. They will not need 12 scoring forwards, they have enough scoring forwards better than Crosby, and they have others who score less than Crosby who would fit better in other roles than he possably could right now. He does not deserve to be on the team, not even close.

Also if you think Shanahan is going to be on the team all I have to say is.
:laughing: :laughing:

Well you just know it all don't you, even the minds of every NHLer, and how much Nash would score. :laughing: You need to watch Crosby play more, he is a PHENOMENAL skater, again, the best Canada has to offer. Thornton, Spezza and Heatley??? :roll:

Again, "not even close" despite being 7th in scoring on a very underacheiving team. :rolleyes: Have you checked how Recchi, Lemieux and Gonchar have done this season?:conspire: Crosby's been their best player, by far, and as I said getting better/more dominant every game.

Care to explain why (aside from your own ignorance) the Olympic Gold and 3 time Stanley Cup-winning, Shanahan, who is currently 3rd among Canadian goalscorers this season and brings everything to the table that you could ask for in a hockey player is such a joke to be picked for Team Canada? :no:

[PDO]

Calling Spezza an unbelievable skater is ridiculous. His offensive talent is elite. His vision on the ice is possibly the best in the league.. but his skating is average, maybe slightly above. Some proof..

Assets Has a wealth of playmaking talent. Uses his size and reach very well in the offensive zone. Displays all the tools to eventually be a great top-line center.
Flaws Must work on his skating ability, play without the puck and physical toughness. Isn't very good defensively.

Scouting report: Spezza has been talked about since he was 14 and his time has finally come. He's a magician with the puck with outstanding vision and creativity, and a deft passing touch. He also possesses a wicked snap shot and can get it away in a hurry in traffic. Spezza sees the ice unlike all but the very best and oozes hockey sense. But he's lacking first-step quickness and a breakaway gear and is just mediocre in his own end. Still, that's nitpicking: he's a dynamite prospect in a strong draft.

Obviously one of them is a bit old.. but you don't become an elite skater just like that. Spezza is a good skater.. Crosby is an amazing skater. It's not a slight to anyone to say Crosby is a better skater.

[wildboy26]

Again, "not even close" despite being 7th in scoring on a very underacheiving team. :rolleyes: Have you checked how Recchi, Lemieux and Gonchar have done this season?:conspire: Crosby's been their best player, by far, and as I said getting better/more dominant every game.

I already listed the players who are below him, with him being 7th in scoring.
Players like Iginla, Sakic, Lemieux(if he chooses), who are locks for the team; and people like Doan and Smyth who would be better leaders role/players, St.
Louis who was scoring leader last time there was an NHL and should have an upper hand coming into the year on making the team, and Nash who also should after his performance at Worlds and who is not playing. Not to mention players like Maltby and Draper who could fit roles Crosby could not, even though Crosby is a better scorer. He should have to be above people like Staal or Spezza in scoring to make the team and he isnt close.


Care to explain why (aside from your own ignorance) the Olympic Gold and 3 time Stanley Cup-winning, Shanahan, who is currently 3rd among Canadian goalscorers this season and brings everything to the table that you could ask for in a hockey player is such a joke to be picked for Team Canada? :no:

You have obviously been in a coma the last 3 months if you had not heard enough Team Canada discussions by analysts, insiders on National TV, or in public transcripts, etc....and that Shanahan has not been even close to being talked about as a possable team pick by any of them. I dont think it would be a joke if he was picked, in fact I think it would be a good idea if Yzerman or Lemieux, or even both, did not play.

[Newfie John]

Wildboy, you simply have no clue what you're talking about.

IMO, Crosby makes the team over St. Louis, Yzerman, Briere, Bertuzzi, Nash even Draper and Maltby. Talking about Spezza being an elite skater shows your ignorance. With Crosby being so young, it'll be good to give him the experience for later aswell.

[wildboy26]

Again, "not even close" despite being 7th in scoring on a very underacheiving team. :rolleyes: Have you checked how Recchi, Lemieux and Gonchar have done this season?:conspire: Crosby's been their best player, by far, and as I said getting better/more dominant every game.

Compare Recchi, Lemieux, and Gonchar as offensive players to the linemates that Ryan Smyth, Shane Doan, Rich Nash(if he were playing), for example have and it is very obvious Crosby has alot more to play with than some of those below him on the scoring list. I am not sure if Thorton, Sakic, or Staal(even with Carolina doing so well right now), are playing with linemates any better, or even quite as good as the people Crosby regularly does, as far as offensive ability. Pittsburg is not a weak team right now because they dont have enough offensive players, especialy in the front end, their defence is very lacking right now, and their goaltending at times has been awful.

[wildboy26]

Wildboy, you simply have no clue what you're talking about.

IMO, Crosby makes the team over St. Louis, Yzerman, Briere, Bertuzzi, Nash even Draper and Maltby. Talking about Spezza being an elite skater shows your ignorance. With Crosby being so young, it'll be good to give him the experience for later aswell.

So your best argument against my opinion me is to say I have no clue, and a list of names. Pathetic. :nod:

[wildboy26]

Obviously one of them is a bit old.. but you don't become an elite skater just like that. Spezza is a good skater.. Crosby is an amazing skater. It's not a slight to anyone to say Crosby is a better skater.

I never thought that about Spezza before this year, this year is the first time I thought that.

Yes you can revolutionize yourself overnight, Spezza was spending alot of time in the minors before this year, now he is one of best in the league. I would say that is an overnight revolution. Please dont suggest that is only because of a new head coach in Ottawa, although I suspect some will say that.

[Newfie John]

So your best argument against my opinion me is to say I have no clue, and a list of names. Pathetic. :nod:

I don't have to bring out my best argument, seems like common sense to me. Prove me wrong.

[Newfie John]

I never thought that about Spezza before this year, this year is the first time I thought that.

Yes you can revolutionize yourself overnight, Spezza was spending alot of time in the minors before this year, now he is one of best in the league. I would say that is an overnight revolution. Please dont suggest that is only because of a new head coach in Ottawa, although I suspect some will say that.

There was a lockout last season, thats why he was in the minors.:rolleyes: He dominated the AHL by the way getting the MVP. Spezza probably would have notched 80 points in the NHL in the lockout year.

[Amoroq]

I don't have to bring out my best argument, seems like common sense to me. Prove me wrong.Johnny you are going to need better skills if you really want to be a lawyer. If 2 scoring forward spots open up and your only choices are Crosby, Spezza and Staal, at their current stats, one would be remiss not to take Spezza and Staal.

[wildboy26]

There was a lockout last season, thats why he was in the minors.:rolleyes: He dominated the AHL by the way getting the MVP. Spezza probably would have notched 80 points in the NHL in the lockout year.

Sorry you are right, I meant the year before that he spent alot of time in the minors, the last year there was NHL.

[wildboy26]

Johnny you are going to need better skills if you really want to be a lawyer. If 2 scoring forward spots open up and your only choices are Crosby, Spezza and Staal, at their current stats, one would be remiss not to take Spezza and Staal.

I agree, and that is why on merit either of those two should be considered for the team over Crosby, since in the roles Team Canada would be looking for from any of those three, Spezza and Staal on most day are better at it right now. If those two are on the bubble to be on the team, as they reportedly are than Crosby who is the same type of player, and would be looked on to play the same role, should not even be a serious consideration.

[TimmyTabasco]

When it comes down to it, Team Canada won't go with many young guys.

Tambellini even said it himself, last night on HNIC(or something to that affect)

If they have a choice of inviting one of the three(Staal, Spezza, Crosby)..then Spezza is the choice to be made

[wildboy26]

When it comes down to it, Team Canada won't go with many young guys.

Tambellini even said it himself, last night on HNIC(or something to that affect)

If they have a choice of inviting one of the three(Staal, Spezza, Crosby)..then Spezza is the choice to be made

Unless they were proven before this year. Before the year I think Nash who is the same age as Staal and Spezza was expected to make the team, but I am not sure if he is anymore due to his injury. I agree between Spezza, Staal, and Crosby, Spezza should be the one especialy with his chemistry with Heatley.

The idea of Crosby replacing Lemieux on the team becomes even more ridiculous since the only argument I could see for him is his familiarity playing with Lemieux, but think how well Nash and Thorton played together at Worlds and the training camp this summer, Spezza and Staal play together, the Tampa Bay guys play together, etc......

[Newfie John]

Johnny you are going to need better skills if you really want to be a lawyer. If 2 scoring forward spots open up and your only choices are Crosby, Spezza and Staal, at their current stats, one would be remiss not to take Spezza and Staal.

lol, this "case" would be comparitive in court to arguing who should go to jail, Mother Theresa or Osama Bin Laden.

[Madferret]

Unless they were proven before this year. Before the year I think Nash who is the same age as Staal and Spezza was expected to make the team, but I am not sure if he is anymore due to his injury. I agree between Spezza, Staal, and Crosby, Spezza should be the one especialy with his chemistry with Heatley.

The idea of Crosby replacing Lemieux on the team becomes even more ridiculous since the only argument I could see for him is his familiarity playing with Lemieux, but think how well Nash and Thorton played together at Worlds and the training camp this summer, Spezza and Staal play together, the Tampa Bay guys play together, etc......

wb26 what are you going to post about after the Olympics?

;)

[wildboy26]

wb26 what are you going to post about after the Olympics?

;)

I will post on how Montreal are going to win the Stanley Cup again this year or if they dont how Toronto will(and both will probably end up losing in the 1st or 2nd round, LOL!), and pout that Jose wasnt picked for Turin. :nod:

[Yoata]

I already listed the players who are below him, with him being 7th in scoring.
Players like Iginla, Sakic, Lemieux(if he chooses), who are locks for the team; and people like Doan and Smyth who would be better leaders role/players, St.
Louis who was scoring leader last time there was an NHL and should have an upper hand coming into the year on making the team, and Nash who also should after his performance at Worlds and who is not playing. Not to mention players like Maltby and Draper who could fit roles Crosby could not, even though Crosby is a better scorer. He should have to be above people like Staal or Spezza in scoring to make the team and he isnt close.

You have obviously been in a coma the last 3 months if you had not heard enough Team Canada discussions by analysts, insiders on National TV, or in public transcripts, etc....and that Shanahan has not been even close to being talked about as a possable team pick by any of them. I dont think it would be a joke if he was picked, in fact I think it would be a good idea if Yzerman or Lemieux, or even both, did not play.

I love how you constantly name Nash as if (just because you think so apparently) he's some sort of lock to make the team.:rolleyes: Crosby is vastly outplaying what Nash did in his rookie year, and even what he did his sophomore year, and he's not missed the whole start of the season to injury. Again with Draper and Maltby??? I'm a Wings fan and I love those two guys, but Maltby doesn't belong at that level, and Draper is not playing well at all this season.

Again you talk about Crosby's teammates as if they're the reason he's scoring so well, but the fact is, they're not (except for Palffy who has benefitted greatly from Crosby's playmaking), and he is. :conspire:

I don't hear Nash's name mentioned at all either, except by you.:rolleyes: Funny how you all of a sudden don't think it would be a joke to pick Shanahan, but before I pointed out why he'd be a great choice, it was so :laughing:

Also notice you're not arguing anynmore about Crosby being a better skater than virtually every guy you mentioned, you really need to watch the players play that you're talking so much about either good or bad, before you start spouting off about them, it really doesn't do much for your argument when you say things that are so obviously born of ignorance, your last post about Spezza "revolutionizing himself over night" is a perfect example.:rolleyes:

[Yoata]

I never thought that about Spezza before this year, this year is the first time I thought that.

Yes you can revolutionize yourself overnight, Spezza was spending alot of time in the minors before this year, now he is one of best in the league. I would say that is an overnight revolution. Please dont suggest that is only because of a new head coach in Ottawa, although I suspect some will say that.

So because this is the first time you thought it, then it msut be because Spezza has "revolutionized himself overnight"??? :conspire: It couldn't be because of your own ignorance instead, perhaps?

WRONG, Spezza was the highest scoring center on the Sens in '03-04, at 20 years of age, he didn't do what he did last year or this year because he "revolutionized himself overnight", he did it, and he's doing it, because he's always been a very talented, highly touted prospect (1st overall) and he's now mature enough to be have the opportunity to be a 1st liner and play with the best wingers on the team. (but that only matters when we're talking about Crosby's linemates, not Spezza's) :rolleyes:

The difference with Crosby is twofold, not only is he doing even better at 18 years of age, he's mature enough at that much younger age to be a 1st liner and a dominant one (would Spezza's numbers be as good as Crosby's were he playing with Palffy and Malone, etc and what about Crosby with Heatly and Alfreddsson?) And that's why Crosby is an even higher touted prospect (much higher really).

[wildboy26]

I love how you constantly name Nash as if (just because you think so apparently) he's some sort of lock to make the team.:rolleyes: Crosby is vastly outplaying what Nash did in his rookie year, and even what he did his sophomore year, and he's not missed the whole start of the season to injury. Again with Draper and Maltby??? I'm a Wings fan and I love those two guys, but Maltby doesn't belong at that level, and Draper is not playing well at all this season.

In his public statements Grezxty has named Nash as one of the ones being highly considered for the team right from the start, Shanahan's name has very rarely if ever come up publicly. Bob MacKenzie has also always brought Nash up as a likely choice in Team Canada discussions, and Shanahan's name has never come up. In Hockey magazine articles it has been the same thing. Yes perhaps Nash might miss the team now that he is injured, but he has always been well above Shanahan in the arguments. In fact before getting his first injury, most were referring to him as a lock for the team.

Crosby outplaying Nash in his sophomore year? That is highly debatable considering Nash ended that year in a tie for most goals in the league, something Crosby wont even come close to doing this year.
That is irrelevant though. Everything Nash was doing last year, especially his performance at the World Championships, indicates he is a much better player today than 2 years ago. Crosby will be a better player in his rookie or sophomore year than almost everybody, just as he was a better junior than anybody else that was 16 or 17 at the same year, but that is pointless. What matters is whether he is more worthy of a spot on the team than them now, so your comparisions are irrelevant and silly.

Maltby and Draper could play a checking role at the Olympics, they would play a different role than Crosby. Crosby would definitely be in a scorers role, but there are enough people better than him at that right now. Comparing the two the way you are is wrong, since the roles they would play would be different, and Crosby could not do what Maltby or Draper would be doing as effectively.

Again you talk about Crosby's teammates as if they're the reason he's scoring so well, but the fact is, they're not (except for Palffy who has benefitted greatly from Crosby's playmaking), and he is. :conspire:

He has better linemates for scoring than some of the names I listed-and the ones I cited you did not try to refute, instead you used names I did not cite as examples. I wonder why. :laughing:

I don't hear Nash's name mentioned at all either, except by you.:rolleyes: Funny how you all of a sudden don't think it would be a joke to pick Shanahan, but before I pointed out why he'd be a great choice, it was so :laughing:

Obviously reading comprehension is not a strength of yours. I pointed out it would seem to be a joke, since he is so far down the list of possable players for Team Canada based on every Hockey Magazine report, every discussion had on TSN or CBC, etc....but I would not consider it to be too bad a choice. That in no way shows my changing my mind on anything.

Again if you have not heard Nash's name being brought up by anybody except me than you are in the same coma that makes you think Shanahan has been highly touted as a possable member of the team, atleast until now that there is the chances of both Lemieux and Yzerman skipping out.


Also notice you're not arguing anynmore about Crosby being a better skater than virtually every guy you mentioned, you really need to watch the players play that you're talking so much about either good or bad, before you start spouting off about them, it really doesn't do much for your argument when you say things that are so obviously born of ignorance, your last post about Spezza "revolutionizing himself over night" is a perfect example.:rolleyes:

Apparently calling anybody who disagrees with you "ignorant" multiple times inflates your own ego. If that is what rocks your boat, enjoy. Oh yes I have seen all those guys I listed play, multiple times. :wave:

[wildboy26]

So because this is the first time you thought it, then it msut be because Spezza has "revolutionized himself overnight"??? :conspire: It couldn't be because of your own ignorance instead, perhaps?

WRONG, Spezza was the highest scoring center on the Sens in '03-04, at 20 years of age, he didn't do what he did last year or this year because he "revolutionized himself overnight", he did it, and he's doing it, because he's always been a very talented, highly touted prospect (1st overall) and he's now mature enough to be have the opportunity to be a 1st liner and play with the best wingers on the team. (but that only matters when we're talking about Crosby's linemates, not Spezza's) :rolleyes:

The difference with Crosby is twofold, not only is he doing even better at 18 years of age, he's mature enough at that much younger age to be a 1st liner and a dominant one (would Spezza's numbers be as good as Crosby's were he playing with Palffy and Malone, etc and what about Crosby with Heatly and Alfreddsson?) And that's why Crosby is an even higher touted prospect (much higher really).

Yeah he did get 55 points last NHL season, but still wasnt even close to the player he is this year, and wasnt considered to be nearly as good an overall player as Hossa, Alfredsson, Hlavlat despite his points. The year before that he played alot in the minor leagues. This year he is sharing leadership of the team with Heatley and one of the best players in the league. I would say that is a pretty quick year by year transformation, which isnt surprising given how young he is.

You are again trying to compare Crosby at the same age to Spezza at the same age which is pointless to this whole topic. I am not disputing that Crosby is a better player at 18 than any of these players that are now 21 at the same age. I am saying he is not better or a more worthy player to be on Team Canada than they are right now. Your attempt to excessively gush on Crosby by comparing him as an 18-year old to others as an 18-year old serves no point to this topic.

Yes I believe Spezza could have incredable numbers playing with the people Crosby plays with in Pittsburg now. The players that Smyth, Doan, and Ovechkin are stuck playing with that is another story perhaps; and it would be for Crosby as well I suspect. :laughing:

[charlio lemieux]

Yeah he did get 55 points last NHL season, but still wasnt even close to the player he is this year, and wasnt considered to be nearly as good an overall player as Hossa, Alfredsson, Hlavlat despite his points. The year before that he played alot in the minor leagues. This year he is sharing leadership of the team with Heatley and one of the best players in the league. I would say that is a pretty quick year by year transformation, which isnt surprising given how young he is.

You are again trying to compare Crosby at the same age to Spezza at the same age which is pointless to this whole topic. I am not disputing that Crosby is a better player at 18 than any of these players that are now 21 at the same age. I am saying he is not better or a more worthy player to be on Team Canada than they are right now. Your attempt to excessively gush on Crosby by comparing him as an 18-year old to others as an 18-year old serves no point to this topic.

Yes I believe Spezza could have incredable numbers playing with the people Crosby plays with in Pittsburg now. The players that Smyth, Doan, and Ovechkin are stuck playing with that is another story perhaps; and it would be for Crosby as well I suspect. :laughing:

It is obvious to see you are just waking up to the Spezza saga. He was good enough to make the NHL his first try but some dimwit decided that he didn't like Jason's defensive play. He was screwed on his contract. His franchise made sure he never got a shot at the Calder, and he was more than capable of producing over a point a game last season if he had been given the opportunity.
As for the comparison of Spezza and Crosby, there is probably no more accurate comparison to make. Both Spezza and Crosby where brought up as the Next One. Enduring way more scrutiny than was fair. Both where slated #1 overall draft picks, by the time they where 16, and if it wasn't for Kovalchuk coming out of no where the year of the draft, Spezza would be a Thrasher.

Hold on I am a Coyotes fan, but when exactly did Doan become Team Canada material? As for his line mates last season Nagy was almost a point a game player until his injury. Doan used to have Tkachuk and Roenick for line mates, he didn't blow the doors off then and his stats are not any better now.

You can ask PDO about Smyth's line.

[PDO]

Last year Smyth played the entire season with Shawn Horcoff and Fernando Pisani.

This year he's center has been Shawn Horcoff, for a while he was with Radek Dvorak, and now he's with Ales Hemsky.

None of those players compare offensively to Palffy at this point (although, Hemsky isn't too far off, and has been nothing short of amazing in the offensive zone this year).

Doan has no business being on TC in Turin.. along with Maltby, Morrow, Peca and Draper (though, none of those players compare to Doan).

[Yoata]

In his public statements Grezxty has named Nash as one of the ones being highly considered for the team right from the start, Shanahan's name has very rarely if ever come up publicly. Bob MacKenzie has also always brought Nash up as a likely choice in Team Canada discussions, and Shanahan's name has never come up. In Hockey magazine articles it has been the same thing. Yes perhaps Nash might miss the team now that he is injured, but he has always been well above Shanahan in the arguments. In fact before getting his first injury, most were referring to him as a lock for the team.

Yes Nash was considered, so what, he was never anywhere close to being a lock, and that was before he missed all but 3 of the first 25+games. And when was this, during the camp??? It was also said that there were so many good players that it would come down to who was playing well at the time, Shanahan definitely is, Nash isn't even playing. :conspire:

Crosby outplaying Nash in his sophomore year? That is highly debatable considering Nash ended that year in a tie for most goals in the league, something Crosby wont even come close to doing this year.

Sorry but when did it become just about goals??? Nash has so far in his very brief career, been a strictly 1 way player, who basically shoots the puck every time he gets it, the few assists he had last season were by accident as looking to pass isn't in his toolkit. Crosby scores and makes beautiful plays, and he backchecks, something foreign to Nash so far.

That is irrelevant though. Everything Nash was doing last year, especially his performance at the World Championships, indicates he is a much better player today than 2 years ago. Crosby will be a better player in his rookie or sophomore year than almost everybody, just as he was a better junior than anybody else that was 16 or 17 at the same year, but that is pointless. What matters is whether he is more worthy of a spot on the team than them now, so your comparisions are irrelevant and silly.

His performance in 1 short tournament in which many of the World's best did not play is hardly sufficient evidence. And he was hardly taking the world by storm last year either, he played in a very weak European league alongside Joe Thornton and still got beat out for the goals race by Oleg Petrov, scored just a few more goals than the likes of Hnat Dominechelli and Randy Robitaille. :jacks: It is hardly pointless, it shows who the better player is, and right now it is Crosby, Nash might be back before the deadline for roster submission, barely, certainly not long enough to be evaluated as a serious consideration, and therefore, he isn't one. Crosby most definitely is, and you chanting Nash's name as some sort of "automatic" when he hasn't registered a single point this season and very well might not before the roster deadline, is what is silly.

Maltby and Draper could play a checking role at the Olympics, they would play a different role than Crosby. Crosby would definitely be in a scorers role, but there are enough people better than him at that right now. Comparing the two the way you are is wrong, since the roles they would play would be different, and Crosby could not do what Maltby or Draper would be doing as effectively.

Again, I'm a Wings fan, and a Malty fan, but he doesn't belong in a best-on-best world torunament, to have a 3rd line grinder there instead of probably 20+ more deserving players would be ludicrous, others can play a different role, they always do, you send your best. And again, I'm a big Kris Draper fan, but he's playing like crap this season so unless he turns it around big time, there are too many better choices.


He has better linemates for scoring than some of the names I listed-and the ones I cited you did not try to refute, instead you used names I did not cite as examples. I wonder why. :laughing:

You mean I cited Palffy who is doing better than any of the other Pens you mentioned. :conspire: :wave:

Obviously reading comprehension is not a strength of yours. I pointed out it would seem to be a joke, since he is so far down the list of possable players for Team Canada based on every Hockey Magazine report, every discussion had on TSN or CBC, etc....but I would not consider it to be too bad a choice. That in no way shows my changing my mind on anything.Again if you have not heard Nash's name being brought up by anybody except me than you are in the same coma that makes you think Shanahan has been highly touted as a possable member of the team, atleast until now that there is the chances of both Lemieux and Yzerman skipping out.

Cut the personal insults little boy, it's likely from the content of your posts that I've I've forgotten more about hockey than you'll ever know. BFD others are "mentioned" and he's not, Lecavaflake is mentioned as almost a lock above others who are more deserving as well, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. This discussion is about who we think is deserving, not about who we think will go, the two are never the same for me, or any other individual in all likelihood. Come to think of it, you seem to have a lot of opinions for somebody who is one of the few I've seen to NOT post YOUR picks for Team Canada (not who you think IS going to be there, but who you think SHOULD be there).

Apparently calling anybody who disagrees with you "ignorant" multiple times inflates your own ego. If that is what rocks your boat, enjoy. Oh yes I have seen all those guys I listed play, multiple times. :wave:

Somehow I doubt that very much, unless you were drunk while watching the games.

It's got nothing to do with my "opinion" and everything to do with how clueless you seem to be about the facts. Such as that Crosby is an exceptional skater while many of those you mentioned are far from it. Such as the fact that Crosby is well among the leading scorers amongst Canadians and that alone has to make him a consideration. Such as the fact that Spezza played the full season with Ottawa in '03-04 and lead them in scoring among centers. Such as the fact that Kris Draper isn't playing well enough right now to be considered for a summer-league 3-on-3 tournament let alone the Olympics. Such as the fact that Kirk Maltby as much as I love him as a Wings fan, doesn't belong on the ice with the likes of those attending the Olympics, let alone going in the place of a true star/superstar player. Such as the fact that Nash hasn't scored a single point, won't likely be in top shape or play enough games to be a serious consideration by the time the team is chosen. Such as the fact that Shanahan is inexplicably a "joke" of a consideration despite his record and production this season. The fact that Nash is out until at least mid December and the deadline for roster submission is Dec. 22, etc, etc, etc. That is what = your ignorance, not the fact that you disagree with me.

[Yoata]

Yeah he did get 55 points last NHL season, but still wasnt even close to the player he is this year, and wasnt considered to be nearly as good an overall player as Hossa, Alfredsson, Hlavlat despite his points. The year before that he played alot in the minor leagues. This year he is sharing leadership of the team with Heatley and one of the best players in the league. I would say that is a pretty quick year by year transformation, which isnt surprising given how young he is.

Yes he played some in the AHL the year before, because he was 19 years old, and because the Sens had 3-4 quality NHL centers ahead of him and they didn't think he was ready to be a #1/#2 center on a cup contender, and they were smart not to put too much pressure on him as he was a bit immature for that role, and they preferred him to get his confidence and experience in a dominant 1st line role in the pros instead of having it weakened and perhaps messing with his future by putting him in a lesser role just to keep him on the big club since they were trying to win a cup. That doesn't mean he suddenly became a different player this season just because you started to notice him, it just means that he's matured and is ready to play a top-line role and that opportunity (including the loss of Bonk and White), combined with great chemistry with his new linemates and the talent/skill that he ALWAYS had, has resulted in his improved production. It's about maturity and opportunity, not a sudden spurt of talent that somehow was released from a delayed glandular reaction or something. :rolleyes:

You are again trying to compare Crosby at the same age to Spezza at the same age which is pointless to this whole topic. I am not disputing that Crosby is a better player at 18 than any of these players that are now 21 at the same age. I am saying he is not better or a more worthy player to be on Team Canada than they are right now. Your attempt to excessively gush on Crosby by comparing him as an 18-year old to others as an 18-year old serves no point to this topic.


What it shows is who the better player is, again, put Crosby on Ottawa and Spezza on Pittsburgh and there'd be an even bigger difference in their point totals than there is now, only Crosby would be ahead, and that's at 18 vs 21. That is not to say that I would pick Corsby ahead of Spezza for the team, just that he's certainly comparable, and much moreso than Nash at this point, and back to the original comparison between the two, he is definitely a better skater than Spezza to be sure.

Yes I believe Spezza could have incredable numbers playing with the people Crosby plays with in Pittsburg now. The players that Smyth, Doan, and Ovechkin are stuck playing with that is another story perhaps; and it would be for Crosby as well I suspect. :laughing:

Yeah I'm sure Spezza would get so much more out of underacheiving Lemieux, Recchi, Gonchar, Leclair, etc, by his mere presence. :rolleyes: Smyth and Doan aren't even in the top 3 in scoring on their own teams :laughing: and the other leading scorers have as many points as the other Pens do, so once again, your theory is blown out of the water by yet another fact you are obviously ignorant of. :thumb:

And since I'm really not sure at this point if you ever have a clue of what you're talking about, in case you didn't know, Ovechkin isn't eligible for the Canadian Olympic team. :conspire:

[Amoroq]

Wow, I love how everyone is being so personal and friendly in this thread :)

[wildboy26]

Yeah I'm sure Spezza would get so much more out of underacheiving Lemieux, Recchi, Gonchar, Leclair, etc, by his mere presence. :rolleyes: Smyth and Doan aren't even in the top 3 in scoring on their own teams :laughing: and the other leading scorers have as many points as the other Pens do, so once again, your theory is blown out of the water by yet another fact you are obviously ignorant of. :thumb:


I guess you think alot of smiley faces in your posts somehow makes your arguments more convincing. Just a tip, they dont. :laughing:

Smyth has been injured for a part of the season and missed 6 games, that is why he is #3 in scoring, but he is the only guy on his team averaging slightly more than a point a game, so he is in essence the highest scorer on his own team. Doan is about equal with two others on his team right now, that is not to say he has far more potential with stronger linemates than they do, and if you dont realize he has been strongly considered for Team Canada from the start, I am not the ignorant clueless one here. Grezxty has mentioned him a heck of alot more than either Crosby or Shanahan publicly so far, that is for sure, as has every other hockey expert.

[wildboy26]

What it shows is who the better player is, again, put Crosby on Ottawa and Spezza on Pittsburgh and there'd be an even bigger difference in their point totals than there is now, only Crosby would be ahead, and that's at 18 vs 21.

Yes and you somehow know this for sure. :laughing: Your own personal bias is very obvious here(not to mention everywhere else).

[wildboy26]

It is obvious to see you are just waking up to the Spezza saga. He was good enough to make the NHL his first try but some dimwit decided that he didn't like Jason's defensive play. He was screwed on his contract. His franchise made sure he never got a shot at the Calder, and he was more than capable of producing over a point a game last season if he had been given the opportunity.

I assume you are referring to either Jacques Martin or John Muckler as the dimwit? I remember Jacques Martin even in 2003-04 when Spezza was able to stay with the big club almost the entire time, criticizing him for his playing style and Spezza complaining of his ice time. Spezza must be relieved he is gone now.

[Yoata]

I guess you think alot of smiley faces in your posts somehow makes your arguments more convincing. Just a tip, they dont. :laughing:

Smyth has been injured for a part of the season and missed 6 games, that is why he is #3 in scoring, but he is the only guy on his team averaging slightly more than a point a game, so he is in essence the highest scorer on his own team. Doan is about equal with two others on his team right now, that is not to say he has far more potential with stronger linemates than they do, and if you dont realize he has been strongly considered for Team Canada from the start, I am not the ignorant clueless one here. Grezxty has mentioned him a heck of alot more than either Crosby or Shanahan publicly so far, that is for sure, as has every other hockey expert.

I think it's obvious the smilies are doing what they are intended to do. ;)

Again, is this about what McWayne thinks about his own players, or about who YOU think SHOULD be there and why?

Post your team already.

[Yoata]

Yes and you somehow know this for sure. :laughing: Your own personal bias is very obvious here(not to mention everywhere else).

What's bias got to do with it, I'm no Pens fan? :confused:

Take a look at Spezza's temmates and how they're scoring, and compare that to Crosby's. Then maybe you'll get it, but I doubt it. :no:

[wildboy26]

Tanguay and Marleau now have the same number of points as Crosby, and Crosby's linemate, Palffy has only 1 less than Crosby, obviously he is not playing with a bunch of hacks as much as one would like to think. Palffy also has a +3 rating compared to Crosby at -6. Tanguay and Marleau both have a big experience edge over Crosby, in a fair World they both should be considered over him as well.

[charlio lemieux]

Tanguay and Marleau now have the same number of points as Crosby, and Crosby's linemate, Palffy has only 1 less than Crosby, obviously he is not playing with a bunch of hacks as much as one would like to think. Palffy also has a +3 rating compared to Crosby at -6. Tanguay and Marleau both have a big experience edge over Crosby, in a fair World they both should be considered over him as well.

Now I like both Tanguay and Marleau, but how can they compare to Crosby?

Crosby 18yrs. Marleau 26yrs. Tanguay 25yrs.

I think if an 18yr old can equal or better the production of players 7 and 8 years older, he deserves some credit.
Still, unless there is some injuries I don't see Crosby on team Canada.

[wildboy26]

Now I like both Tanguay and Marleau, but how can they compare to Crosby?

Crosby 18yrs. Marleau 26yrs. Tanguay 25yrs.

I think if an 18yr old can equal or better the production of players 7 and 8 years older, he deserves some credit.
Still, unless there is some injuries I don't see Crosby on team Canada.

How does doing things so much younger come into play here. The team should be picked on who are the best players now, not who are better for their age. Of course Crosby is way better than both for his age, that shouldnt help him make the team this year though.

If anything in the past though younger players had to do more than players older than them to be selected due to the experience factor. It was never said so and so deserves more credit for doing this so young. Thorton was not only doing more than players like Nolan or Niewenduyk at the same age in 2002, but more than they were doing that year even at a much younger age, and still was not picked. Granted that was an extreme choice and a very bad one, even if Canada managed to win gold anyway, and it was a much dumber choice than leaving Crosby off the current team would be. However the experience some of the older plays had playing more Canada at international events, and many years in the NHL were definitely considered I suspect.

[Yoata]

Tanguay and Marleau now have the same number of points as Crosby, and Crosby's linemate, Palffy has only 1 less than Crosby, obviously he is not playing with a bunch of hacks as much as one would like to think. Palffy also has a +3 rating compared to Crosby at -6. Tanguay and Marleau both have a big experience edge over Crosby, in a fair World they both should be considered over him as well.

Now where is this argument when it comes to Rick Nash?

In particular the part about +/- I think will be very interesting...

[charlio lemieux]

How does doing things so much younger come into play here. The team should be picked on who are the best players now, not who are better for their age. Of course Crosby is way better than both for his age, that shouldnt help him make the team this year though.

The fact that 7yr NHL veterans, are being praised for being tied with an 18yr old in scoring, says alot for the 18yr old. The fact that he is the yard stick against whom all others are now being judged, says even more. Tanguay and Marleau are not in the same category of player Crosby is/will be, plain and simple.


If anything in the past though younger players had to do more than players older than them to be selected due to the experience factor. It was never said so and so deserves more credit for doing this so young. Thorton was not only doing more than players like Nolan or Niewenduyk at the same age in 2002, but more than they were doing that year even at a much younger age, and still was not picked. Granted that was an extreme choice and a very bad one, even if Canada managed to win gold anyway, and it was a much dumber choice than leaving Crosby off the current team would be. However the experience some of the older plays had playing more Canada at international events, and many years in the NHL were definitely considered I suspect. Didn't I already say Crosby will only be on the team if there are injuries?
But there are still a few players that deserve consideration before Marleau and Crosby. Tanguay may have an edge as a natural winger. But center is almost too deep. Savard, Spezza, Staal, Crosby, only one of these guys is going to get a chance and that is only because Yzerman pulled out. You can stick Marleau in there if you want. But Spezza should be the one to go.
Alot depends on how many players are kept at their natual positions. The more natural wingers that are picked, the fewer the number of centers will be on the team.
If age and experience are the only things that keep Crosby off the team, I'm fine with that. But that is a far cry from saying he is doesn't deserve it because older players on better teams are out scoring him.

[wildboy26]

The fact that 7yr NHL veterans, are being praised for being tied with an 18yr old in scoring, says alot for the 18yr old. The fact that he is the yard stick against whom all others are now being judged, says even more. Tanguay and Marleau are not in the same category of player Crosby is/will be, plain and simple.

I am not comparing them for their age, I already said that. Crosby is miles better at the same age as Tanguay or Marleau, but that is irrelevant right now, since they are the ages they are. However they have been as least as good this year, not what they are doing for their age, and have alot more experience.


Didn't I already say Crosby will only be on the team if there are injuries?
But there are still a few players that deserve consideration before Marleau and Crosby. Tanguay may have an edge as a natural winger. But center is almost too deep. Savard, Spezza, Staal, Crosby, only one of these guys is going to get a chance and that is only because Yzerman pulled out. You can stick Marleau in there if you want. But Spezza should be the one to go.
Alot depends on how many players are kept at their natual positions. The more natural wingers that are picked, the fewer the number of centers will be on the team.
If age and experience are the only things that keep Crosby off the team, I'm fine with that. But that is a far cry from saying he is doesn't deserve it because older players on better teams are out scoring him.

I agree Spezza should get the remaining spot at centre if 1 is vacant, over both Marleau and Crosby. Tanguay is a natural winger like you said, Crosby and Marleau are not, that should also be considered if what they need is somebody else to play wing.

Also Colarado is not stronger than Pittsburg as far as their forwards play this year. They are a better overall team since Pittsburg has disaesterous goaltending and defence. Colarado is still a long ways from the Colarado teams of 94-2002 though. San Jose a clearly stronger team? They have been pretty much a disaester this year as well as Pittsburg, maybe that will now change with Thorton coming over, but up to now that isnt really true at all.

[charlio lemieux]

I am not comparing them for their age, I already said that. Crosby is miles better at the same age as Tanguay or Marleau, but that is irrelevant right now, since they are the ages they are. However they have been as least as good this year, not what they are doing for their age, and have alot more experience.
Crosby is as good a player or better at 18 as the other two are at 25 and 26. His defensive play may not be as good but he is a far more dangerous offensive threat. It equals out.



I agree Spezza should get the remaining spot at centre if 1 is vacant, over both Marleau and Crosby. Tanguay is a natural winger like you said, Crosby and Marleau are not, that should also be considered if what they need is somebody else to play wing.

Also Colarado is not stronger than Pittsburg as far as their forwards play this year. They are a better overall team since Pittsburg has disaesterous goaltending and defence. Colarado is still a long ways from the Colarado teams of 94-2002 though. San Jose a clearly stronger team? They have been pretty much a disaester this year as well as Pittsburg, maybe that will now change with Thorton coming over, but up to now that isnt really true at all.
Colorado 104 goals for. Pittsburg 77 goals for. Who would you say is stronger as far as their forwards play?
As you have just said the Thorton deal may make San Jose stronger than Pittsburg. I think he definately makes them stronger than Pittsburg. So lets say in the last two games San Jose has had a stronger team than the Penguins. Marleau has 29 points overall he got 6 of them since the trade in the last two games. Over 1/5 of his total points in less than 1/10 of the gamesplayed. So I think his numbers should be viewed with some caution.

[wildboy26]

Crosby is as good a player or better at 18 as the other two are at 25 and 26. His defensive play may not be as good but he is a far more dangerous offensive threat. It equals out.

Is he really better offensively? He has the same points as them, and his linemates are scoring just as much as the linemates of Tanguay and Marleau so far. Surprisingly Sakic only has 28 points so far.


Colorado 104 goals for. Pittsburg 77 goals for. Who would you say is stronger as far as their forwards play?

Sorry I should have specified myself better. I meant the top end forwards of both teams, not neccessarily the whole team. Remember the 3rd and 4th liners of Pittsburg have alot of trouble scoring, Colorado has better depth, but those are not the people either player play with, on either 5 on 5, or the power play except the very rare occasion, maybe a bit on the penalty kill, that is it.

As you have just said the Thorton deal may make San Jose stronger than Pittsburg. I think he definately makes them stronger than Pittsburg. So lets say in the last two games San Jose has had a stronger team than the Penguins. Marleau has 29 points overall he got 6 of them since the trade in the last two games. Over 1/5 of his total points in less than 1/10 of the gamesplayed. So I think his numbers should be viewed with some caution.

That is true. He did seem to have a fire lit under him when Thorton came over that wasnt there previously this year, especially the couple of games I saw San Jose play on TV, he was not playing near how he was in the playoffs last year I thought(and you cant compare points that way, since rules are different now, and playoff hockey is different anyway). Crosby has also cooled off of late to slip down the points race, and that has nothing to do with the Thorton trade.

[charlio lemieux]

Is he really better offensively? He has the same points as them, and his linemates are scoring just as much as the linemates of Tanguay and Marleau so far. Surprisingly Sakic only has 28 points so far.
Hello, he is doing it as an 18yr old kid, they are 25 and 26 yr old NHL veterans. They should be outscoring him 2-1 like they are doing to almost every other rookie.
Crosby is already halfway to Marleau's carreer best point total and we're 30 games into the year.

Sorry I should have specified myself better. I meant the top end forwards of both teams, not neccessarily the whole team. Remember the 3rd and 4th liners of Pittsburg have alot of trouble scoring, Colorado has better depth, but those are not the people either player play with, on either 5 on 5, or the power play except the very rare occasion, maybe a bit on the penalty kill, that is it.
Un-huh and Turgeon and Svatos are doing... what?
Averaging around a point agame between them on the second line is what. Where is that on Pittsburg?
The only time anybody other than Palffy, racks up points is when they play with Crosby.
Turgeon and Svatos are a combined -1 on the season. Lemieux and Recchi are a combined -36. So which of the two teams second line would you say is performing the best?
Judging from the plus/minus of Recchi and Lemieux, they must get most of their points on the Power play. When they play with Crosby.

Pittsburg has scored 77 goals. Crosby has been in on 29 of them. That means he has been involved in over 1/3 of his teams total offensive output as an 18yr old rookie.


That is true. He did seem to have a fire lit under him when Thorton came over that wasnt there previously this year, especially the couple of games I saw San Jose play on TV, he was not playing near how he was in the playoffs last year I thought(and you cant compare points that way, since rules are different now, and playoff hockey is different anyway). Crosby has also cooled off of late to slip down the points race, and that has nothing to do with the Thorton trade. Crosby has been playing with a bad foot.

[Man.Utd]

Spezza a superior skater to Crosby?

I had to stop reading and take a laughing break.

He certainly doesn't have that low center of gravity and deep strides Crosby does and uses to such great effect. But I feel it'd be fair to also point out Spezza has worked on his skating alot since comng into the league. He's at least average now and although his acceleration isn't that great he does have a bit of the "big man" speed saw in players like Lemieux once the wheels get moving.

Anyway, Spezza and Staal definatly > Crosby as of now. Some may argue for future experience for Crosby, but even if they won't be as crucial as Sid the Kid down the road rest assured Spezza and Staal will play huge roles for Canada in the future too. Really, it's between the older competitors as far as I'm concerned. They're pretty equal, though I'd be inclined to say Spezza with a gun to my head and it seems as if most others would aswell. But Jason has that chemistry with Heatley, which you think would give him the edge for Olympic selection.

[slapshot™]

From the CBC.ca website...


Crosby auditioning for Gretzky

WebPosted Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:53:29 EST CBC Sports (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/credit.html)

Sidney Crosby probably would prefer having Mario Lemieux by his side against the free-wheeling Tampa Bay Lightning in the most important game of his young NHL career.

RELATED: Player bio: Sidney Crosby (http://www.forecaster.ca/cbc/hockey/player.cgi?4093)
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/crosby_sidney051109getty.jpg Team Canada executive director Wayne Gretzky will be scouting Sidney Crosby on Thursday. (Getty Images)

Instead, the rookie centre and his Penguins teammates? minus the ailing Lemieux ? will have to find some open ice versus the tight-checking Minnesota Wild Thursday night at Pittsburgh's Mellon Arena. Crosby's every move will be closely monitored by Phoenix Coyotes coach Wayne Gretzky, who doubles as Team Canada executive director for the 2006 Torino Olympics in February.

FROM OCT. 19, 2005: Rookies, vets on Team Canada long Olympic list (http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2005/10/19/Sports/cdahockey_olympiclist051019.html)
A spot on Canada's 23-man roster could be available to the 18-year-old Crosby, especially if Lemieux ? a popular choice of Gretzky's ? isn't healthy.
The Penguins forward-owner was hospitalized on Wednesday with an irregular heartbeat. He also missed two games recently with a stomach virus.

FROM DEC. 6, 2005: Yzerman withdraws from Olympic team (http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/sports/icehockey/stories/index.shtml?/story/olympics/national/2005/12/06/Sports/yzerman-olympics051206.html)
On Tuesday, Detroit Red Wings captain Steve Yzerman withdrew his name from Olympic consideration, a move that also could make room for one of the NHL's rising stars.
"To represent your country, I'd like to definitely do that," Crosby told reporters at Mellon Arena on Wednesday.

RELATED: Lemieux discharged from hospital (http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2005/12/08/Sports/lemieux051208.html)
The speedy playmaker certainly hasn't hurt his chances.
Crosby leads the Penguins in scoring with 29 points in 27 games and hasn't shy away from the physical side of the NHL game.
On Thursday, he'll try to help Pittsburgh halt a five-game losing streak against the winless-in-four Wild.
Gretzky began an Olympic scouting trip Tuesday at Air Canada Centre in Toronto alongside his assistants Kevin Lowe, Steve Tambellini and Marc Habscheid.
Lowe, also general manager of the Edmonton Oilers, will attend his team's game against the hometown Philadelphia Flyers on Thursday.
Gretzky and company will then meet in Philadelphia on Friday with Canadian head coach Pat Quinn and his assistants Ken Hitchcock and Wayne Fleming to shorten the 81-player long list.
Florida Panthers coach Jacques Martin, also an assistant with Team Canada, will join the group via conference call.
''The only way to really get a handle on it now is for us to get together in person and talk about each player and what they bring to the table,'' said Gretzky, whose Coyotes don't play again until Sunday.
"It's not going to be easy. All these players are good. To pick down to the final 23 is going to be tough.''

Gretzky will announce Canada's roster after a final meeting Dec. 21 in Vancouver.

[a4l]

Crosby deserves tobe on the team. Don't forget he has more recent experience in international play and that counts for a lot.

[Man.Utd]

Don't forget he has more recent experience in international play and that counts for a lot.

Against boys. Spezza, just like Corsby, has plenty of experience against other country's youngsters. He became then only the third 16-year-old to make the national junior team, joining Gretzky and Eric Lindros a few years ago.

Spazza and Staal have more NHL experience. And that counts for more as far as I'm concerned. They'll be playing against NHL'ers for the most part.

[wildboy26]

He did not deserve a spot on the team and he did not get it. I applaud Grezxty for standing up to Lemieux's attempts to pimp Crosby onto the team.
He should have to earn his spot like everybody else, and that should include future years. I would be shocked if he is not so strong by 2010 he is a shoo-in for the team on merit anyway, but he still should have to earn any future spots on the team on merit. His play this year has been very impressive, but he is not worthy of a spot on the team, when you consider he has been so far outperformed by both Staal and Spezza and neither made the team, he certainly does not belong on it this year.

He is not that good a defensive player, and he is not yet one of the best offensive players. I have no idea where he would fit into the team but he certainly would not have helped them that much.

[Yoata]

He did not deserve a spot on the team and he did not get it. I applaud Grezxty for standing up to Lemieux's attempts to pimp Crosby onto the team.
He should have to earn his spot like everybody else, and that should include future years. I would be shocked if he is not so strong by 2010 he is a shoo-in for the team on merit anyway, but he still should have to earn any future spots on the team on merit. His play this year has been very impressive, but he is not worthy of a spot on the team, when you consider he has been so far outperformed by both Staal and Spezza and neither made the team, he certainly does not belong on it this year.

He is not that good a defensive player, and he is not yet one of the best offensive players. I have no idea where he would fit into the team but he certainly would not have helped them that much.

I might have an easier time "applauding" McWayne if he hadn't "pimped" his own player onto the team, and allowed the other selection committee members to do the same. Obviously Lemieux should've been more active in Team Canada, then it wouldn't have been as much of an issue.

[wildboy26]

I might have an easier time "applauding" McWayne if he hadn't "pimped" his own player onto the team, and allowed the other selection committee members to do the same. Obviously Lemieux should've been more active in Team Canada, then it wouldn't have been as much of an issue.

You are right actually. Pronger sure as heck deserves to be on the team. However Tambellini was allowed to push his own two currently unworthy players on the team, and even Smyth being on the team was quite likely a Lowe influence. You are right on Doan, but it is worth noting Joseph was kept off the team. Had Lemieux been on the executive commitee Crosby would have been on the team too, and Recchi playing even a bit better than he is now might have been(not that he would have deserved it).

[wildboy26]

Now where is this argument when it comes to Rick Nash?

In particular the part about +/- I think will be very interesting...

Sorry I did not notice this earlier. Nash has not played much this year, so it hard to read too much into any of his stats in this years NHL season. I remember his +/- not being that good last NHL season either, but what I dont remember is how it compared to his teammates, and it was still the best on his own team or not. Although I like Nash, and was dissapointed earlier in the year he would be left off the team, after him not playing almost all year up until the selection date, and with how well Staal, Spezza, Shanahan, Kariya, have all performed the last few weeks his selection was a bit of a gift too IMHO. It is amazing he could not make the World Cup team as a 19-year old in 2004 when he tied for the NHL lead in goals, and now he makes it having played almost no NHL hockey this year. The powers-that-be must like him as well.

[wildboy26]

http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey/ny-spnhl224561843dec22,0,971500.story

Just an example of how annoyingly overhyped Crosby as, as incredable as he is, especially for an 18-year old. His agent saying, "he would have easily fit into one of Canada's top 2 lines." What a deluded world his agent lives in, if Crosby had made the team he would only have been the 13th forward and everybody knows it, first two lines, what planet is he on!?!?

[charlio lemieux]

His agent is right. Crosby could easily fit into one of the top two lines. There wouldn't be any drop in skill, that's for sure. His abilities where never in question. What he lacks is experience, some strength conditioning and some defensive awareness. All that will come with time.
This Anti-Crosby crusade you're on is pretty lame.
How can you even be "overhyped" if you do what they say you can?

This kid will be on his third or fourth straight scoring title and still probably hear this kind of garbage. He's the best 18yr old in the game get over it. He is scoring a point a game and fighting some 20yr old russian kid for the rookie scoring lead just like all the "hype" said he would. IMO he has done everything that was predicted for him. Does he need to score two-points-a-game to not be "overhyped"?

[wildboy26]

His agent is right. Crosby could easily fit into one of the top two lines. There wouldn't be any drop in skill, that's for sure.

You are crazy, Crosby is not even close to good enough to be on one of the first two scoring lines; heck he wasnt good enough to make the team, and most hockey experts openly agreed with him being below Staal and Spezza and not even making the taxi squad, and not being on the team at all. In fact there was alot of agressive criticsm in the period leading up to the team selection on both television and in newspapers, of his possable selection, I would be happy to post some examples if you really like. If you think he was ever going to be on one of the first two lines, had he been on the team, you are nuts. "for him to be on the team over Staal, just would not have been right", I have heard that so many times, I have lost count. Players like Gagne, Sakic, Heatley, Iginla, Thornton, are much much better than him right now, not for "their age", since that is irrelevant right now. Your bias towards Crosby is so obviously overwhelming, it makes me seem to be on anti-Crosby crusade to you, when in fact it is your own blatant favortism towards him, if others gets swallowed up in the "sid the kid" hype to the point it colors their judgements that is their problem, not mine. You keep pointing out his age, when you are ignoring the fact I am not disputing he is better than almost all others the last 15 years at 18, however what he is doing at 18 is irrelevant to the discussion of how he stacks up now, age omitted. For the record, since you bring up Ovechkin, Ovechkin is playing with far weaker linemates in Washington than even Crosby in Pittsburg, yet is ahead in both goals and points, he is clearly the superior player right now.

[wildboy26]

IMO he has done everything that was predicted for him. Does he need to score two-points-a-game to not be "overhyped"?

To live up to the gushing given towards him, which is far more than even Grezxty and Lemieux got at the same age, yes he would have to do something of those proportions. :rolleyes:

[wildboy26]

This kid will be on his third or fourth straight scoring title and still probably hear this kind of garbage. He's the best 18yr old in the game get over it.

Come back at me when he is on his 3rd or 4th scoring title, I could see it maybe happening at some point, but I suspect it will be alot longer than you think it will be, if it does happen. As for being the best 18-year old player in the game, I agree, but then again who is his opposition for that? Many players have been the best 18-year old in the game at some point. I am actually more generous than you in a sense, I admit he is possably the best 18-year old since Lindros. You merely say he is the best 18-year old in the game today, hardly a monumental feat in the grand scheme of things.

[Yoata]

Crosby turned 18 just before the season started, Lindros turned 20 halfway through his first NHL season.

Crosby is easily the best 18 year-old since Lemieux.

[wildboy26]

Crosby turned 18 just before the season started, Lindros turned 20 halfway through his first NHL season.

Crosby is easily the best 18 year-old since Lemieux.

Ok fair enough, but doesnt Lindros still hold many of the junior scoring record(then again rules were different than when Crosby played junior, they were more like todays rules). Do you honestly think he would be on one of the first two lines for Canada had he been in Turin, as his agent thinks though? I am pretty sure he would have been on the 4th line or the 13th forward.

I also find it far too early to assume he will win 10+ scoring titles and break all of Grezxty's records. People are definitely jumping the gun to assume he will do that already(I am not referring to you, but I have heard many talk about those things happening as if they are gaurantees).

[Yoata]

Scratch that, Lemieux was a year older than Crosby when he debuted in the NHL, Crosby is easily the best 18 year-old since Gretzky, and even Gretzky was 6 months older.

[wildboy26]

The rules were different though, players entered the draft a year later, plus Lindros sulked and waited out a year before playing in the NHL, so it not totally their faults they could not play in the NHL at 18(well it is Eric's fault for losing another year to his sulking but that is another matter). :nod: The funny thing is Eric, later in his career, sulked his way out of Philadelphia either.

[Yoata]

I don't think Lindros holds any OHL records as far as I know, don't think he ever did, but most of them are held by 19 and 20 year olds who didn't go to the pros at that age.

Crosby played junior in the Q, so if you want to compare:

Lemieux at age 17: 66GP 84G 100A, 184P
Crosby at age 17: 62GP 66G 102A, 168P

[Yoata]

The rules were different though, players entered the draft a year later,

What? Where did you get that from?

And who cares why, the fact is, we're comparing 18 year-olds.

[wildboy26]

What? Where did you get that from?

And who cares why, the fact is, we're comparing 18 year-olds.

Yes I know, but if they were not able to play in the NHL at 18, it is not their fault. Lemieux played in the NHL as soon as he could have, and he was still 19. Lindros would have been 19 already even if he had chosen to play as soon as he could have as well.

[Yoata]

The NHL draft age is 18 same as it was for Lemieux, his birthday just happens to fall just after the cut-off and Crosby's just before.

Again, who cares why, the point is, they weren't 18.

[charlio lemieux]

You are crazy, Crosby is not even close to good enough to be on one of the first two scoring lines;

Actually I am crazy. What was your address again?
Where would the drop-off in skill occur?
He is just as skilled or more than anyone who is on the team. The main reason he is not on the team is the fact he is only 18 years old. Thats is the same reason why Spezza and Staal are considered above him. They are older with more experience. Age and experience are the same reasons why Staal and Spezza are not on the real roster, and why Joe Thornton got left behind four years ago.

Your bias towards Crosby is so obviously overwhelming, it makes me seem to be on anti-Crosby crusade to you, when in fact it is your own blatant favortism towards him, if others gets swallowed up in the "sid the kid" hype to the point it colors their judgements that is their problem, not mine.
My bias? Get real. He was hyped as the best 18yr old player in the game. He is.
He was hyped as giving Ovetchkin a run for the Calder. He is.
He was hyped as having great speed and deft hands. He does.
No bias simply fact. Maybe you should set your own personal bias aside and look at what the kid has done.

To live up to the gushing given towards him, which is far more than even Grezxty and Lemieux got at the same age, yes he would have to do something of those proportions.

Like you even know what was said about Gretzky and Lemieux. Judging from your posts I would say you weren't even alive for Gretzky's best years and missed the beginning of Lemieux's carreer as well. The Draft lottery was brought in because Pittsburg tanked an entire season on purpose so they would be able to draft Lemieux. But according to you Lemieux wasn't hyped? Gretzky was being followed by reporters by the time he was a teenager, but he had no hype? I am sorry but your arguements are baseless and without fact.

Is Crosby good enough to have played on the top 2 lines for team Canada? Damn Straight!
That doesn't mean there aren't others who could do the same. Staal and Spezza are only two of about 20 players who are skilled enough to have played on the top two lines for Canada, but didn't make the team.

[charlio lemieux]

Come back at me when he is on his 3rd or 4th scoring title, I could see it maybe happening at some point, but I suspect it will be alot longer than you think it will be, if it does happen. As for being the best 18-year old player in the game, I agree, but then again who is his opposition for that? Many players have been the best 18-year old in the game at some point. I am actually more generous than you in a sense, I admit he is possably the best 18-year old since Lindros. You merely say he is the best 18-year old in the game today, hardly a monumental feat in the grand scheme of things.

WB, baring injury, he will have a scoring title before he is 25. You heard it here first.
He is competing with a 20yr old and a 23yr old for the rookie scoring title and is doing quite well. Even Phanuef, the darkhorse, is 20yrs old. Just making the NHL as an 18yr old is impressive. As an 18yr old Crosby is better than the majority of the players in the entire league. Is that good enough for you? Infact there are fewer than 30 NHL players who are capable of out scoring him to this point of the season. So it would stand to reason that, Offensively, Crosby is in the top 5% of all the players in the NHL. Now to do it as an 18yr old, I do find that very impressive. The kid is good. Better than most NHL players are, right now.
If you can't see that you have to remove your "hate goggles", and take another look.

[wildboy26]

......for an 18-year old......for an 18-year old. I wonder if when Kessel, Toews, and Tavares, enter the NHL we will hear this phrase from you over and over again as well. :)

Actually the fact that you have to continually use that phrase to try and prove your point, proves my point in almost all these discussions. If Crosby were good enough period, to be doing these various things, eg-playing on a top two line on Team Canada, nobody would have to reference his age, since his level of play forgetting his age would merit it on its own. Of course that is not the case, and even you know this, hence the age reference over and over.

As for the other things he is gauranteed to accomplish, remind me when he has actually done them. Nobody predicted 14 years ago Lindros at 33 would be only a fairly good(perhaps being generous)NHL player who is light years from making a Team Canada team, and at 29 he would be a controversial pick to even make a Team Canada Olympic team, and not been able to lead his team to a Stanely Cup(playing on a very good team). In most cases the hype pans out as expected, but not all.

[charlio lemieux]

......for an 18-year old......for an 18-year old. I wonder if when Kessel, Toews, and Tavares, enter the NHL we will hear this phrase from you over and over again as well. :)

If they can even make the NHL as an 18 year old. Then score a point-a-game, be named Assistant Captain, and lead their team in scoring, then yes, you will hear that phrase over and over again.

[charlio lemieux]

Actually the fact that you have to continually use that phrase to try and prove your point, proves my point in almost all these discussions. If Crosby were good enough period, to be doing these various things, eg-playing on a top two line on Team Canada, nobody would have to reference his age, since his level of play forgetting his age would merit it on its own. Of course that is not the case, and even you know this, hence the age reference over and over.



Look kid there is no one saying he is not "good enough" to be on the team except you. Everyone else realizes that regardless of the fact he is more skilled than some of the players named to the team, the fact he is only 18, and has very little experience, is why he is not on the team. The exact same reasoning goes for Spezza and Staal. Both are way ahead of other Canadian centers, except Tornton, but they are not on the initial team because of their age and lack of experience.

And you seem to miss how big a deal it is for people to actually be debating the Idea of an 18yr old being on Team Canada. Not only is he that good, but he's that good that young.

[Yoata]

I will not be the least bit surprised if Crosby challenges for, or even wins the scoring race next year.

[charlio lemieux]

Me either.

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

Crosby doesn't deserve to be on Team Canada because he isn't in the top 13 forwards that should make the team. Him being only 18 and inexperienced does have some to do with it, but it also has to do with him not being as good of a player as Gagne, Thornton, Iginla, Sakic, Heatley, St. Louis, Lecavalier, Richards, Spezza, Staal, and more. He may be more offensively gifted than some of the players on Team Canada, but his lack of defense also hurts him. He just simply as complete or good a player as the other guys on the team or that have been left off of it. Just because he is doing all that he is doing at 18 means he deserves to be on the team. He is clearly better than all the other players in the league when they were 18, but that doesn't mean I would pick him to play a game for me this very day.

[wildboy26]

I will not be the least bit surprised if Crosby challenges for, or even wins the scoring race next year.

I will be very surprised if you are even close to being right. ;) I will eat my own words as well if you are though.

[wildboy26]

Crosby doesn't deserve to be on Team Canada because he isn't in the top 13 forwards that should make the team. Him being only 18 and inexperienced does have some to do with it, but it also has to do with him not being as good of a player as Gagne, Thornton, Iginla, Sakic, Heatley, St. Louis, Lecavalier, Richards, Spezza, Staal, and more. He may be more offensively gifted than some of the players on Team Canada, but his lack of defense also hurts him. He just simply as complete or good a player as the other guys on the team or that have been left off of it. Just because he is doing all that he is doing at 18 means he deserves to be on the team. He is clearly better than all the other players in the league when they were 18, but that doesn't mean I would pick him to play a game for me this very day.

I agree with you. He is a great offensive player in the NHL already, but there are enough people superior offensively to him right now; that is why I could not see him being on the first two lines right now, and he is not that strong a defensive player(again NHL standards)yet to be a 4th line type role. However if he had made the team over Spezza or Staal this year, it probably would have been because he can play both centre and wing, and Staal and Spezza can only play centre effectively, and there are more spots that were potentialy open on the wing than at centre.

[Yoata]

I will be very surprised if you are even close to being right. ;) I will eat my own words as well if you are though.

Keep a knife and fork handy, I'll supply the salt.

[wildboy26]

Keep a knife and fork handy, I'll supply the salt.

Will do. :laughing:

[charlio lemieux]

From his play since the announcement, I would almost say that Crosby is glad he is not on Team Canada. One less pressure on him. Now he can concentrate on only having to win the Calder Trophy and lead a basically Lemieux-less Penguins team into the playoffs for his Rookie season to be considered a success. If only every 18yr old rookie had it so lucky.

[wildboy26]

An NHL season is long, and every good player has periods of scoring more points, some scoring less, with the difficulty and high caliber of the league maintaining the same scoring pace at all times never happens. Both Ovechkin and Crosby have gone 8-10 game periods scoring 0.4 points a game or something like that, and then 8-10 game periods scoring 1.5-2 points a game. That is nothing unusual, and is common for any good NHL player, experienced or otherwise.

[charlio lemieux]

You wouldn't thank this kid if he saved your life, would you?

What is the cause of such bias?

[wildboy26]

You wouldn't thank this kid if he saved your life, would you?

What is the cause of such bias?

Every single thing I just said made sense. All NHL players have periods of 8-10 games getting more points, 8-10 game with less points, relative to other periods. If you want I could post an example of a number of good players point production throughout a year and it would easily prove my point.

I have no bias against Crosby, you are just such an obviously pro-Crosby fan, any rational opinion that does not trumpet him as a god who is already one of the 2 or 3 best players in the league at 18 already is seen by you as some sort of slight, but frankly I dont give a damn. If you want anti-Crosby bias go to Don Cherry.

[charlio lemieux]

Every single thing I just said made sense. All NHL players have periods of 8-10 games getting more points, 8-10 game with less points, relative to other periods. If you want I could post an example of a number of good players point production throughout a year and it would easily prove my point.

I have no bias against Crosby, you are just such an obviously pro-Crosby fan, any rational opinion that does not trumpet him as a god who is already one of the 2 or 3 best players in the league at 18 already is seen by you as some sort of slight, but frankly I dont give a damn. If you want anti-Crosby bias go to Don Cherry.
Do you even pay attention to twhat you write?
Please show me where I said he was one of the top 3 players in the league.
Quit making stuff up. I just want the kid to have a fair chance, and not have to put up with haters like you. Like I said, you wouldn't thank him if he saved your life.

[wildboy26]

Another response from you, what a surprise. :) It is like tossing a dog a bone, the dog always comes running.

Hey just for fun perhaps they use the same standards for choosing Canada's track and swimming teams, if we ever get to the point of being real contenders which we are not now, as you think we should our hockey team in saying Crosby should have been on the team and even should have been on one of the first two lines. After all you qualify anytime I bring up a more worthy player while always including, "for only 18" "doing this at 18" "they would have never done close to this as an 18-year old". Lets say there are special rules for being 18, or for being a younger age, at our track or swimming trials. So if a 25 and 26 year old do a 1:45.1 and a 1:45.3, but two 18 year olds do a 145.8 and 1:45.84, they should put the 18 year old on the team because "what they did for 18-year olds is way better than those other two did for their age". Then at the Olympics lets say the gold medal time is a 1:44.8, the silver a 1:45.45, and the bronze a 1:45.67. The 25 and 26 year would have medaled had they matched their times from trials. The two 18-year olds do a 1:45.85 and 1:45.9 respectively, similar to what they did at trials but dont medal. The Canadian coach files a protest though, the protest claims, "the gold, silver and bronze medalist were 27, 25, and 28 years old respectively; our 18-year olds were only a second slower and were so many years younger, their times were far better for their age than the three medalists for theirs, thus I believe we should be awarded gold and silver." Then much to the shock of the Canadian delegation medals are not awarded based on your times per age standard, age is irrelevant, it is only point blank what your time was that determined your placement. Gasp goes the Canadian coaches, we could have won 2 medals if we sent the older swimmers, why darn are they not factoring in that our kids are only 18. Life moves on, Canadian coaches sit stumped, oh well, better luck next time.

Hockey works the same way. Crosby participating in any goal or assist at the Olympics does not mysteriously give Canada 1.5 points instead of 1 because "it was done by an 18 year old".

Actually for the record if the team was picked today he would have a much stronger argument to make it then he did when the team was actually picked, and I would not have complained nearly as much as I would have a month ago. When the team was actually picked he was barely inside the top 13 Canadian forwards in scoring, but some behind him were dominant past players or superstars(Iginla, Sakic), team leaders(Doan, Smyth), or role players(Draper)so he was never a logical choice then. He has played much better since the team was introduced, too bad for him he was getting only 0.5 points per game in the 3 weeks leading up to the selection date however.

[charlio lemieux]

Kid your logic is Bass-ackwards.
Crosby is, as an 18yr old, skilled and tallented enough to have played on one of the top two lines on team Canada. Becuase he is 18yrs old and lacks the experience and defensive awareness that comes with age he was left behind.
It is mindboggling that you can't see that when the very same logic was used when deciding the fates of Spezza and Staal. If they had the experience and leadership of Sakic, Richards and Lecavalier they would have been on the team instead.
Going by your example above it would be like leaving an 18yr old off the team who is actually a faster runner but has veteran runners in front who earned the right to go and have run in an international meet before.

Actually for the record if the team was picked today he would have a much stronger argument to make it then he did when the team was actually picked, and I would not have complained nearly as much as I would have a month ago.
So now it isn't a bad idea?
Where are you coming from?

[wildboy26]

Kid your logic is Bass-ackwards.
Crosby is, as an 18yr old, skilled and tallented enough to have played on one of the top two lines on team Canada. Becuase he is 18yrs old and lacks the experience and defensive awareness that comes with age he was left behind.
It is mindboggling that you can't see that when the very same logic was used when deciding the fates of Spezza and Staal. If they had the experience and leadership of Sakic, Richards and Lecavalier they would have been on the team instead.

If that is the case then why dont you leave off the "for an 18 year old", "if they were 18" "he is only 18" over and over when explaining why he is as much or more worthy than others who are older. You always bring up his age, and if my example above shows anything, it is that is distorts from the real argument at hand to use what he is doing "for his age" in terms of his worthiness when picking a team and designating roles on a team. How incredable he is for his age has nothing to do with picking the best people. If you feel he is one of those, then you dont need to mention his age, but you do repeatedly anyway.

My point on top two lines is if he did not make the taxi team if he had made the team he certainly would not have been on a top 2 line, also when looking at the players who likely will be on those. I dont see what is so illogical about that. Would he be put over Sakic, Thornton, Nash(if he is at his best by Turin), Iginla, Heatley, Gagne, Richards, for example on a top two line right now? I dont see how it is a bash to find that illogical especially when he did not make the team as it was.

Going by your example above it would be like leaving an 18yr old off the team who is actually a faster runner but has veteran runners in front who earned the right to go and have run in an international meet before.

Which has happened before many times.


So now it isn't a bad idea?
Where are you coming from?

Judging somebody on a week in-week out basis is usually a flawed method, but keep in mind he is somebody who is new to the league so there is a short history of evaluation where he fits in ability-wise to the big league, no matter how incredably skilled he is for his age, it is something that cant be known for sure without a few months of play. Obviously being mostly a point-scorer, without too much defensive aptitude, or somebody who would be suited as a role player or team leader on a Team Canada, he should be higher in points than he was at the time of Team Canada selection than he was, and scoring more points in the weeks leading into that selection than he was, to be correctly named to the team. He wasnt then, but he seems to be moreso now, but it is a bit too little too late since the team is already picked. If he was putting up the points in the few weeks leading into the selection day as he is now, there is a much better chance he would have been picked is all I am saying.

As for Staal and Spezza I bet they would not taken since they are centres, if they were wingers or versatile centres they probably would have been. There was simply no room for an-only centre, with their insistence on taking Draper as a checkers role, rightly or wrongly.

[charlio lemieux]

Kid you are a waste of time. You simply cannot grasp the fact that it is because he is 18yrs old, everything he does is that much more impressive. It is the fact he is an 18yr old, that he was left off the Team Canada roster. It has everything to do with him being an 18yr old.

[wildboy26]

Kid you are a waste of time. You simply cannot grasp the fact that it is because he is 18yrs old, everything he does is that much more impressive. It is the fact he is an 18yr old, that he was left off the Team Canada roster. It has everything to do with him being an 18yr old.

LOL! You cannot grasp the fact that if you were able to make an argument why he was top 2 line caliber on the Olympic team as you claim he is, you would be able to make that argument without bringing up his age, you would talk only of his skills, stats, or whatever argument you are using hockey-related, and ignore how much greater they are "for his age", which is irrelevant to the argument, since as I said you will not be rewarded at the Olympics or ever on the ice on hockey for how well you are doing "for your age". Given that you never even attempt to give reasoning that does not include his age, you are obviously unable to do this.

[a4l]

:violin::violin:

[charlio lemieux]

LOL! You cannot grasp the fact that if you were able to make an argument why he was top 2 line caliber on the Olympic team as you claim he is, you would be able to make that argument without bringing up his age, you would talk only of his skills, stats, or whatever argument you are using hockey-related, and ignore how much greater they are "for his age", which is irrelevant to the argument, since as I said you will not be rewarded at the Olympics or ever on the ice on hockey for how well you are doing "for your age". Given that you never even attempt to give reasoning that does not include his age, you are obviously unable to do this.

Get a clue Kid!
HE is skilled enough to play on the top two lines. Just look at his stats, and his highlights. Because he is only 18, is the reason he isn't on the team.
Right now he is offensively better than most players in the league. It is only made more impressive by the fact he is playing better than older more experienced players, as an 18yr old.

His age is the reason everything he does is more impressive.
His age is the reason why he was left off the team.
His age seems to be a big issue for you. Are you jealous or something?

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

Charlio, you don't seem to understand that age has no bearing for the choices that were made. Now, it is because of his age that he doesn't have much experience or leadership, but if someone was doing what he is doing at 25 and was a rookie, he too would be left off the team.

By your logic, if Crosby finished 2 goals behind the leader at the end of the season, he should get the Richard trophy because he is only 18. And if he finished 5 points behind the points leader at the end of the season he should get the Art Ross because he is only 18.

If I were to start a franchise, I would most definitely take Crosby to build with, but if I needed one player to play one game, or a tournament RIGHT NOW, I would take many players over Crosby. Which is exactly what Canada did and they were absolutely right for doing it.

[charlio lemieux]

Charlio, you don't seem to understand that age has no bearing for the choices that were made. Now, it is because of his age that he doesn't have much experience or leadership, but if someone was doing what he is doing at 25 and was a rookie, he too would be left off the team.

By your logic, if Crosby finished 2 goals behind the leader at the end of the season, he should get the Richard trophy because he is only 18. And if he finished 5 points behind the points leader at the end of the season he should get the Art Ross because he is only 18.

If I were to start a franchise, I would most definitely take Crosby to build with, but if I needed one player to play one game, or a tournament RIGHT NOW, I would take many players over Crosby. Which is exactly what Canada did and they were absolutely right for doing it.

If you don't think Crosby's, Spezza's, Staal's and Phaneuf's age and experience played a major part in them not being selected you're cracked.

By your logic, if Crosby finished 2 goals behind the leader at the end of the season, he should get the Richard trophy because he is only 18.
That is so NOT what I am saying. You are as big a waste of time as the other kid.

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

If you don't think Crosby's, Spezza's, Staal's and Phaneuf's age and experience played a major part in them not being selected you're cracked.


That is so NOT what I am saying. You are as big a waste of time as the other kid.

Experience is a huge consideration of how these players are picked. Are you trying to argue that experience doesn't matter??? If you are, then look no further than yesterday's performance by Eli Manning, and tell me again that experience doesn't matter.

One reason that Nash was selected to the team was because of his experience in international play. Once again, age hs nothing to do with the reason that these players were left off. They lack experience of international play. Sure experience comes with age but like I said, a rookie at 25 could be doing what Crosby is doing right now and he still wouldn't be selected because he lacks experience.

[wildboy26]

Crosby would not be on the top two lines at the Olympics, age overlooked, because he is not one of the 6 best offensive forwards right now, or at the very least was not at the time the Olympic team was selected, keep in mind his last few weeks which have boosted his yearly performance had not occured yet. Crosby is on a hot streak right now but Heatley, Gagne, and Thornton for starters were far beyond him at the time of Olympic team selection offensively; also keep in mind Gagne missed a chunk of games due to injury and still is fighting for the lead league in goals. Nash has not played this year, but he is also averaging about 2 points a game the last 5 or 6 games, getting more goals, and doing it on an even weaker offensive team than Crosby, he is given the recognition for what he probably would have been doing this year had he been healthy, and that had he been healthy he probably would have been fighting for the scoring title this year, and certainly above Staal, Spezza, and Crosby in points. Iginla and Sakic have probably been producing below many of these players this year, but nobody doubts putting them in a big tournament like the Olympics they will show their A+ game which is probably better than almost any of the aforementioned others others; players such as these will not be judged on only a few months. LeCavalier(World Cup MVP, although overall I find him overrated compared to his two Tampa Bay teammates), Richards(playoff MVP a couple years back), and St. Louis(regular season MVP, hart and art ross for the year a couple years back)also deserve more consideration for that sort of thing at this point, based on those past displays at important times, even if they are not at the top of their games so far this year. So there are alot of people who were either performing even better than Crosby offensively at the time the team was selected, or if not have shown an ability at some point to be the very best player out there when it matters most. Then you have the role players, players who bring more to the team than just offensive upside, people like Smyth, Doan, and Draper. As for Bertuzzi, his selection is a puzzle to me so I wont even get started. :nod:

As for Spezza and Staal, they are about the same age as Nash so I doubt age meant much. They simply lost out due to the extraordinary depth of Canadian forwards, along with perhaps the fact Doan(Grezxty's team), Smyth(Lowe's team), Bertuzzi(Tambellini's team)also had more of the inside track for some of the usual political reasons. Staal and Spezza were probably hurt most though by the fact they only play centre, and there was no room at centre, since they felt they needed Draper on the team as a role player. Had they been wingers they might have made it, but they cant play wing. Also if one say Crosby has it tough playing for a weaker team, than one could say Spezza is fortunate to be in Ottawa playing with the best linemates in the league. It works both ways.

[Kovalchuk17]

I would say Kovalchuk is the most dominant player in the game today.

He has bursting speed, he has a great one-timer, I love the kid.

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

I would say Kovalchuk is the most dominant player in the game today.

He has bursting speed, he has a great one-timer, I love the kid.

What does that have to do with a thread about Team Canada:rolleyes:

Atlanta has a forum to post about Kovalchuk in.

[Kovalchuk17]

What does that have to do with a thread about Team Canada:rolleyes:

Atlanta has a forum to post about Kovalchuk in.

Yeah I know, I had to internet windows open, and I kind of posted in the wrong one.