Ichiro or Pujols

[Mel]

Found this article on ESPN kind of interesting. If you had to choose one player to build your franchise around.... would it be Ichiro or Pujols...

here's the article http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?page=ichiropujols

I'm saying Ichiro.

[KB in Kelowna]

I see a fair amout of Mariner games here and I am impressed with the speed and defense of Ichiro.

[leaferfan87]

I'd pick Albert Pujols. I like Ichiro, but Pujols is younger than Ichiro and will hit nearly as well as Ichiro and provide much more power.

[Mel]

I'd pick Albert Pujols. I like Ichiro, but Pujols is younger than Ichiro and will hit nearly as well as Ichiro and provide much more power.

The only advantage Pujols has over Ichiro stat-wise is home runs and RBI's... that's to be expected. There' plenty of sluggers in the league who can put up the HR's and RBI's.

But there is only one Ichiro.

* he gets on base more than anybody
* he runs the bases as good or better than anyone else in MLB
* he's a gold glove
* scares opponents from taking that extra base when he fields a hit
* his average typically leads the AL.
* Steals tons of bases

As I said, Pujols is a great slugger, but there's a lot of great sluggers out there... Ichiro is one of a kind in my opinion.

And not for nothing... but sluggers rely heavily on their set-up men. Ichiro is the best lead off man in the league. His speed and defensive skill are the reason he won rookie of the year and MVP in the same season.

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

The only advantage Pujols has over Ichiro stat-wise is home runs and RBI's

Well average wise their about the same too. Also, coming into this season, in 400 less at bats Pujols has 50 more runs scored, even though he hits out of a power spot. Pujols also has a better career on base percentage, which is a stat a great leadoff man should excel at (not saying Ichiro's is bad, but Pujols' is better). Also, if it wasn't for a guy named Barry Bonds Pujols would have two MVPs already. On top of that, Pujols is a lot younger than Ichiro, and has put up numbers in the first four years of his career that only few have matched. If injuries don't slow him down Pujols will go down as one of the greatest hitters in the history of the game. Not trying to get down on Ichiro because he's a great player, but if I'm building a franchise then the guy I want is Pujols.

[Daryl Shilling]

Pujols, every day of the week.

Ichiro has been terrific since he came to the American League, with an OPS+ of 124 over that time. In other words, he's been 24% more productive than the average hitter. That's awesome stuff.

Pujols, over the same period, has an OPS+ of 169. This is no contest, AND he's 6 years younger than Ichiro. Over that time you'd need about 1 1/3 Ichiros to equal what Pujols has done, in addition to the age factor, which is huge.

Daryl

[Canucklehead]

As I said, Pujols is a great slugger, but there's a lot of great sluggers out there... Ichiro is one of a kind in my opinion.

And not for nothing... but sluggers rely heavily on their set-up men. Ichiro is the best lead off man in the league. His speed and defensive skill are the reason he won rookie of the year and MVP in the same season.

I say Pujols. Don't get me wrong, Ichiro is great and one of my favorite players, but even if he is "one of a kind" he's still a lead off man. Having a slugger like Pujols, even if there are several other good ones, is more important then the best set-up man in the league IMO.

[Daryl Shilling]

But there is only one Ichiro.
For sure, a fine player.

* he gets on base more than anybody
This past year was the first time that Ichiro's OBP got to Pujols' level.

* he runs the bases as good or better than anyone else in MLB
Hell of a baserunner.

* he's a gold glove
* scares opponents from taking that extra base when he fields a hit
For sure, but we need to place this in some context...

Over the last four seasons, Pujols had 640 Runs Created, while Ichiro had 460, a difference of 180 RC in Pujols' favor. For Ichiro's defense to make him better is flatly impossible. His defense hasn't saved 180 runs from scoring.

* his average typically leads the AL.
Pujols is also a batting champion

* Steals tons of bases
Ichiro needs to improve in this area. His SB% is right around 75%, which is the cut-off point for base stealing to be helpful for his team.

Daryl

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

How do you calculate OPS+, Daryl?

I've heard lots of people refer to it before, but what makes it so special when compared to regular OPS.

[Daryl Shilling]

How do you calculate OPS+, Daryl?

I've heard lots of people refer to it before, but what makes it so special when compared to regular OPS.

OPS+ is basically OPS normalized to league averages and takes park factor into account, which is extremely important. It shows how far above or below average the player was, stated as a percentage. So, OPS+ main use in a conversation like this, because cross-year or cross-era bias is removed as much as possible from the statistics.

Daryl

[Leafs_Fa_Life]

Ok, I hate to take this off topic, but you said it takes parks into account too. So, I was wondering what would Todd Helton's OPS+. I think he's one of the better hitters in the game, but Coors definitely inflates his numbers.

[Daryl Shilling]

Ok, I hate to take this off topic, but you said it takes parks into account too. So, I was wondering what would Todd Helton's OPS+. I think he's one of the better hitters in the game, but Coors definitely inflates his numbers.

Helton is a good guy to look at. Since 2001, Coors has had the highest Park Factor three times, and was second last year. Definitely a hitter's paradise.

For example, in 2001, Helton lead the league in OPS, however when Park Factor was taken into account (OPS+) he was 8th. Or, taken over the length of his career, he has the second highest OPS among active players, but has the 11th best active OPS+. Hell of a players, but OPS+ helps reduce the statistical illusion created by Coors Field.

Daryl

[Mel]

Honestly, I wasn't taking age into account, I was thinking more theoretically. It is a valid point.

But at any rate, I am nowhere near qualified to debate baseball stats (or any stats) with Daryl. :)