Your Version of Team Canada for Turin?

[Newfie John]

Don't read too much into the lines.

Heatley - Lemieux - Iginla
Marleau - Sakic - St. Louis
Richards - Lecavalier - Smyth
Kariya(he's been ok) - Lindros(if he keeps playing well) - Draper

Pronger - Blake(senority, experience)
Niedermayer - Redden
Mccabe - Bouwmeester
Hannan

Luongo
Brodeur
Theo.

Possible controversial picks.

Paul Kariya- He's been playing well so far in Nashville. I expect it to keep up so I stuck em in.

Lindros- He's been unstoppable thus far with 7 goals so far this season.

Draper - Excellent grinder, great against skillful players, awesome speed decent finish. Pesky player. He's no star, but he's the best role player in the league.

Mccabe- How can you not put him on the team with the way he's been playing. He wouldn't get too much 5 on5 play but on the PP he'll be out there everytime.

What about you?

[PDO]

It had to be said.. Lindros will be injured by the time it's time for Turin ;)

Nash - Thornton - Bertuzzi
Smyth - Spezza - Heatley
Gagne - Sakic - Iginila
Kariya - Lecavalier - Lemieux

Doan

Pronger - Blake
Niedermayer - Bouwmeester
Foote - Brewer

Redden (Boyton very close..)

Luongo
Brodeur
Theodore

On a few of your picks...

St. Louis has looked like utter crap so far this year, and when we have 3 natural RW's whose names are Heatley, Iginila and Bertuzzi, and a guy by the name of Mario who can play RW as well, I think he gets bumped. That's not even including a guy like Doan.

You just can't warrant putting Lindros on this team ahead of either young guys like Spezza, or a veteran like Yzerman. Not to mention Joe Thornton.

Why do we need specialists (McCabe, Draper) when we have players who aren't specialists, but can actually do everything better than (including what these guys specialize in) the said players? *If* McCabe can keep his play up, he could make an argument for that 7th spot. Hannan has been brutal this year.

Great picks in net :thumb:

[a4l]

Kariya - Sakic - Iginila
Gagne - Thornton - Lemieux
Smyth - Spezza - Heatley
Nash- Lecavalier - Bertuzzi

Foote- Blake
Pronger- Bouwmeester
Niedermayer- Brewer

Brodeur
Theodore
Turco

[Newfie John]

Brian,

Thus far this year, I think Lindros has been better then Thornton. 7 goals for him. Ofcourse I'm bias and it is a valid point that Lindros could be injured by then.

You're right on with St. Louis, but he may be able to come out of it. It's a tough spot to crack anyway.

Also, if you didn't want to pick specialists, why did you put Foote on the team? Don't get me wrong, Foote probably will get a spot but I was just pointing out your flawed point. Also, I think so far this season Mccabe has been just as good if not better defensively then Brewer(I don't know if you can blame him since he doesn't have a defence partner worth a damn), and I don't have to explain to you how dynamite Mccabe has been offensively. Bouwmeester is another one, while one day he will blow Mccabe out of the water, he's not there yet. He may get a spot there though because Canada is thinking of their future. You have to keep in mind that Mccabe hasn't been playing like a specialty player this season. He's been solid defensively and has rocked the scoresheet and hasn't taken too many dumb penalties. He's been all around a good defencmen. Whether that keeps up or not is another story.

[Yoata]

Murray - Thornton - Iginla
Kariya - Crosby - St.Louis
Spezza - Richards - Heatley
Lemieux - Sakic - Yzerman

I love the size of the 1st line, speed of the 2nd, skill of the 3rd, and experience of the 4th.

Spares: Draper, Nash

Pronger - Niedermayer
Blake - Foote
Boyle - Redden

Really like these pairings, O and D in every one.

Spare: McCabe

Brodeur
Luongo

Spare: Legace

[PDO]

We're 8 games in, and if you look at the history of the 2 players it suggests that Thornton will be the better player this season. That's not even counting the fact that Joe is both younger, and more versaitale.

I fail to see how Foote is a specialist? He's a #1 defenseman on almost any team in the league. I hardly see how a defenseman being "stay-at-home" is a specialist. The defensemans #1 goal is to keep the puck out of the net.. this is accomplished through positioning (Foote is elite), being physical (once again, Foote is elite), and reading your own end of the ice well via the breakout pass and viewing the lanes (once again, Foote is elite).

Brewer's +/- has been rocked by one bad game (-5), the guy is a #1 (barely, but he's a #1 in this league) and he skates beauitfully - which is huge for the Olympics, and another reason to be wary about McCabe.

As for Bouwmeester, you need to constantly be thinking about the future while winning it all, so I see no reason to keep a 22 (I believe? may be 23 now) year old defenseman who is already playing at an elite level off the team for a veteran who may be slightly better.. and that's a big may. On these Canadians teams I believe they should constantly have 2-3 young studs so that the torch can continually be passed. Hockey players hit their prime at about 29 years old, that's what you should constantly be building for.

[leaferfan87]

Iginla
Sakic
Lemieux
Heatley
Smyth
Crosby
Richards
Draper
Kariya
Nash
Thornton
Doan

Pronger
Blake
Jovanovski
Redden
Bouwmeester
McCabe

Luongo
Brodeur
Theodore

[Newfie John]

We're 8 games in, and if you look at the history of the 2 players it suggests that Thornton will be the better player this season. That's not even counting the fact that Joe is both younger, and more versaitale.

I fail to see how Foote is a specialist? He's a #1 defenseman on almost any team in the league. I hardly see how a defenseman being "stay-at-home" is a specialist. The defensemans #1 goal is to keep the puck out of the net.. this is accomplished through positioning (Foote is elite), being physical (once again, Foote is elite), and reading your own end of the ice well via the breakout pass and viewing the lanes (once again, Foote is elite).

Brewer's +/- has been rocked by one bad game (-5), the guy is a #1 (barely, but he's a #1 in this league) and he skates beauitfully - which is huge for the Olympics, and another reason to be wary about McCabe.

As for Bouwmeester, you need to constantly be thinking about the future while winning it all, so I see no reason to keep a 22 (I believe? may be 23 now) year old defenseman who is already playing at an elite level off the team for a veteran who may be slightly better.. and that's a big may. On these Canadians teams I believe they should constantly have 2-3 young studs so that the torch can continually be passed. Hockey players hit their prime at about 29 years old, that's what you should constantly be building for.

Foote is a defensive specialist, he's physical and he has great leadership skills. Little to no offensive game. Mccabe isn't as good as Foote defensively, they both have leadership abilities but Foote is superior but Mccabe blows Foote out of the water offensively. Foote gets a spot over Mccabe though, no doubt. I'm just pointing out where Foote would be a specialist.

Brewer was bad in the last time he played for Canada I thought. Him and Jovanovski were really bad. Brewer isn't having a good year this year and you've got to give the spot to Mccabe over Brewer.

Bouwmeester will be on the team, IMO. So I agree with you, but I'm not sure if he'll have a top 6 spot.

[Yoata]

NJ, how can a guy who leads his team in total icetime, and is top 3 in ES, SH, and PP TOI/G among dmen both on Columbus and on Colorado last season be considered in any sense of the word a "specialist"? That is a word usually reserved for the likes of guys who get the majority of they're icetime either killing penalties, or on the PP, or I suppose you could inlclude fighters and maybe guys on a limited minute checking line in that category, but not a guy who plays 24 minutes per game in all situations.

btw, Foote's had 2 30+ point seasons in recent years since getting more of an offensive role in Colorado, not Bobby Orr numbers, but still a decent offensive contribution in the recent past NHL.

Regardless, his rock solid D, versatility, and cup-winning experience make him a better choice than McPivot, I don't care how many power-play points he gets this year.

Also, by the same token PDO, Draper is a better defensive forward than anybody on any list mentioned, by far in most cases, and he can add offense as well, check his stats last season where he was a 2nd line center for the first time in his career. Besides that his blazing speed make him a great choice for the big ice.

btw, Bertuzzi's done nothing this season or last to make him more worthy of a spot than Glen Murray, or even Shanahan who's playing great hockey this year, and has the track record of being a champion. Also, how anybody can put not put St. Louis and Richards on a team, but can find room for Lecavalier is beyond comprehension, both have outplayed and outshined him in all areas for the last couple of seasons, regular season and playoffs, and neither have had his attitude and consistency problems. IMO he's the most overrated, overpaid player in the game.

And wtf is Bouwmeester an automatic for everybody??? The kid's 22, has shown next to nothing aside from some good skating in the NHL, scored a whopping 26 points in 82 games in the AHL last season, and has accomplished little aside from another undeserved position on a Canadian team.

[Max Power]

All I have to say is this is going to be one tough year for picking Team Canada. You know some of the usual shoe inns will need to be cut. My top two foward lines would be those two and the rest is too hard to pick. One thing is Canada is way too deep down the middle to pick


Rick Nash - Joe Thornton - Glen Murray
Simon Gagne - Jason Spezza - Dany Heatley
Ryan Smyth - Mario Lemieux - Jarome Iginla
Vincent Lecavalier - Joe Sakic - Brad Richards

Daniel Briere
Sidney Crosby
Shane Doan
Kris Draper
Paul Kariya
Eric Staal
Alex Tanguay

D is a little easier... Most of the vets will still be on. 6 - 7 - 8 will be the only questions

Rob Blake - Adam Foote
Scott Niedermayer - Chris Pronger
Wade Redden - Ed Jovanovski

Brian McCabe
Jay Bouwmeester
Chris Philips

This is the easy part

Martin Brodeur
Roberto Luongo
Marty Turco

[Newfie John]

NJ, how can a guy who leads his team in total icetime, and is top 3 in ES, SH, and PP TOI/G among dmen both on Columbus and on Colorado last season be considered in any sense of the word a "specialist"? That is a word usually reserved for the likes of guys who get the majority of they're icetime either killing penalties, or on the PP, or I suppose you could inlclude fighters and maybe guys on a limited minute checking line in that category, but not a guy who plays 24 minutes per game in all situations.

Mccabe does that, he's apparently just a "specialty" player even though he's been solid so far this year defensively as well.

]

[Yoata]

Mccabe does that, he's apparently just a "specialty" player even though he's been solid so far this year defensively as well.

]

Oh I agree McCabe's not a "specialist" either, though he's not near as reliable defensively as Foote, and there's already plenty of offensive guys on Team Canada,

[Newfie John]

Oh I agree McCabe's not a "specialist" either, though he's not near as reliable defensively as Foote, and there's already plenty of offensive guys on Team Canada,

We agree then. Upon further review, I could see the defence being:

Niedermayer - Foote
Blake - Pronger
Redden - Mccabe
Bouwmeester

I think Mccabe has pushed Phillips out, Brewer and Jovo have pushed themselves out. I'm not a fan of having Bouwmeester on the team but that seems to be what Gretz wants.

[TimmyTabasco]

Well..remember Team Canada at the World Cup..just barely beat the Czech Republic. Plus, they lost to the same team at the Worlds.

So, I think the lineup should be tinkered with. The Czechs will have again..a solid team. Jagr is back playing great, and a tossup between Vokoun/Hasek in net ;)

Nash-Thornton-Sullivan
Gagne-Sakic-Iginla
Lemieux-Spezza-Heatley
Madden-Richards-Smyth

Spare: Bertuzzi, Draper

Foote Blake
Niedermayer Pronger
Redden Aucoin

Spare:Jovo

Luongo
Brodeur
Joseph

[Yoata]

taintedmedaljo???

The guy who folded in the first game (like he always does under pressure) the last time he was shilled onto team Canada?

[TimmyTabasco]

taintedmedaljo???

The guy who folded int he first game (like he always does under pressure) the last time he was shilled onto team Canada?

Yeah, that guy.

I explained this in the other thread
The other thread (http://www.hockeystation.com/showthread.php?t=1827)

[Madferret]

taintedmedaljo???

The guy who folded int he first game (like he always does under pressure) the last time he was shilled onto team Canada?

lol

[Yoata]

TT's got some kind of weird thing for playoff choking goaltenders.

[Man.Utd]

Nash - Thornton - Iginla
Smyth - Spezza - Heatley
Kariya - Sakic - Richards
Gagne - Lemieux - Draper

Potential Spares: Doan, Murray, Bertuzzi, Lecavailler, Yzerman

Niedermayer - Pronger
Redden - Foote
Blake - Jovanovski

Potential Spares: McCabe*, Phillips, Bouwmeester, Boynton

Luongo
Brodeur

Potential Spares: Theodore, Turco, Belfour

Foward line 1: Thornton and Nash have had great success on the international stage before and here's hoping that continues. Iggy is simply our best RW'er and when you have such great scoring depth there's no real need to resort to "balanced lines" IMO. Some have mentioned Murray in this position. I can certainly see the logic behind it, but at the end of the day I think there are just better, younger players avilable who also have had chemistry with Big Joe (see: Nash).

Forward line 2: Another big play on chemistry. This time with Ottawa duo Spezza and Heatley. Both are young and big game players who should be center-pieces for Team Canada for years to come who can do some great damage now. Heatley was great recently for Canada and we'll want him to do it again. Smyth adds a nice element of international experience, grit, and leadership to the line. And he's pretty talented offensively himself. ;) Strong on the boards to cycle the puck for these two.

Forward line 3: Sakic passing to Kariya is money. Paul has blazing speed, is off to an equally fast start in Nashville, and should excell on the big ice. Sakic has proven his worth in past tournaments. Richards is an extrememly talented player who is versitile enough to play W and is smart two-way. Gets some experience for the future.

Forward line 4: Lemieux will be included in some way, shape, or form I'm sure. Can't say I wouldn't do the same. Gagne is great two-way and has a good scoring touch. Should do well playing alongside his idol. Draper can be another strong two-way player, is fast, and will make sure Super Mario is left untouched. His best value is his PK ability. On a team stacked with great goaltending and defense people often think goals will stop themselves without forwards doing their share backchecking etc. Not so. And with (primarily) a purely offensive group of skaters, we'll need a defensive horse or two up front.

Defense:

Niedermayer and Pronger not only compliment each other well but are also our two best defensemen. The 1st pairing is simple IMO.

Redden and Foote are two other great compliments to each other. Both are strong two-way and, as always, will play a large role in Canada's success. Redden gets top 4 honours this time for his admirable performance last time out for Canada, selected as Canada's best defenseman. Foote seems like the perfect guy to round it out.

Blake and Jovo are two outstanding defensemen who other nations would kill to have patrolling their bottom pairing. Blake is getting up there and perhaps could do with softer minutes in comparison to the other horses we have on the blueline, and truth be told I just don't trust Jovo-cop enough in a top 4 role on the international stage as good as he is. Not after his last performance.

Notice the * besides McCabe's name. He deserves a place if he keeps this up, but I'm skeptical. I don't think there's a D man in the league who can lead the league in scoring for an extended period of time. Having said that, he doesn't have to. Just keep up a good pace. Better than he had last season. We shall see. He'll definatly be making a huge push and no one should be surprised to see him make it. The usual suspects are again there a spares on D. Poor Phillips, Boynton, etc. Any other country and they'd be regulars. :laughing:

Goaltending:

Luongo gets the nod over Marty now based on the two's form to date. That could change. Spares are again the usual candidates; Theodore, Turco, etc.

[Newfie John]

I can't see how Jovo gets a spot on this team.. Mccabe has gotta be there over him.

[Madferret]

I can't see how Jovo gets a spot on this team.. Mccabe has gotta be there over him.

John, Jovo has 2 G 8 A for 10 pts (only 5 less than McCabe), while sitting at +2. When you consider who has the better goaltender behind you, add in International expierence, it's a nobrainer - Jovo beats McCabe by a country mile.

[Newfie John]

John, Jovo has 2 G 8 A for 10 pts (only 5 less than McCabe), while sitting at +2. When you consider who has the better goaltender behind you, add in International expierence, it's a nobrainer - Jovo beats McCabe by a country mile.

Eddie hasn't been good this year so far either. Don't get me going again on +/- again anyway, it's a useless stat and has no merit when you're talking about individual play. It's a team stat. 5 points is a big differential so early in the season by the way.

I've seen a few Nuck games this season, Jovo hasn't been good defensively. Though not glaring because the Cloutier or Auld made the save. I didn't see their game last night(fell asleep) but when I looked at the thread the guys said the same thing was happening.

Offense- Mccabe> Jovo
Defence - Mccabe> Jovo (So far this year anyway, usually they're about equeal

Physicality - Mccabe = Jovo

The last time Jovo played internationally he was down right HORRIBLE. I can't see them picking him again. With Mccabe's great play you've got to pick him over Jovo atm.

[Madferret]

Eddie hasn't been good this year so far either. Don't get me going again on +/- again anyway, it's a useless stat and has no merit when you're talking about individual play. It's a team stat. 5 points is a big differential so early in the season by the way.

I've seen a few Nuck games this season, Jovo hasn't been good defensively. Though not glaring because the Cloutier or Auld made the save. I didn't see their game last night(fell asleep) but when I looked at the thread the guys said the same thing was happening.

Offense- Mccabe> Jovo
Defence - Mccabe> Jovo (So far this year anyway, usually they're about equeal

Physicality - Mccabe = Jovo

The last time Jovo played internationally he was down right HORRIBLE. I can't see them picking him again. With Mccabe's great play you've got to pick him over Jovo atm.

Obviously you & I have our different ideas on McCabe belonging on Team Canada, but I'll say this. If anyone is going to get skipped over for McCabe I'd rather it be Bowmeester. Jovo stays IMO. I'll let the Canuck fans weigh in our your post if they feel the need to.

[Newfie John]

Obviously you & I have our different ideas on McCabe belonging on Team Canada, but I'll say this. If anyone is going to get skipped over for McCabe I'd rather it be Bowmeester. Jovo stays IMO. I'll let the Canuck fans weigh in our your post if they feel the need to.

I agree with you on Bouwmeester but some people can't let go of his potential. I think he should reach it before we send him to the Olympics.

Jovo just played too badly last time around. I'd rather see Phillips there even over Jovo.

[Yoata]

Personally Jovanoopsi's radical inconsistency, especially defensively for me makes it hard to rely on him for such a short and important tourny, but by the same token, McPivot's no Rod Langway either, and probably lacks the skating ability on the big ice, and the discipline to stay out of the box, so I say neither should go, with perhaps a slight edge to Jovo since he's a better skater and has the experience. (I know I made McCabe a spare and not Jovo, so sue me)

[Newfie John]

Mccabe's play on the bigger ice is a valid point. In the lockout year he had a horrible showing though he wasn't in good shape and hardly cared about it. For a guy who's playing this well though, you've got to give him a chance. If he doesn't pan out, give him the can. Mccabe couldn't do much worse then Jovo, he was horrible.

[TimmyTabasco]

I agree with you on Bouwmeester but some people can't let go of his potential. I think he should reach it before we send him to the Olympics.

Jovo just played too badly last time around. I'd rather see Phillips there even over Jovo.

You have to remember this one fact about the Worlds..

There was no regular hockey season. Many players hadn't played all year.

Jovo was bad, as were others. But, I dont think since they were..they are out of the race.

BTW I'd rather take Aucoin over Bouwmeester and Phillips. And no Johnny, not Souray ;)

[TimmyTabasco]

TT's got some kind of weird thing for playoff choking goaltenders.

So, did you read the reasoning? ;)

I'm not saying Joseph will be there. But I am saying he has as good a chance as any other 3rd string goalie.

Remember, the 3rd string will likely not play. Its more of a respect thing, like they did with Belfour in 2002.

Theodore was to go to the Worlds as a 3rd string, but he turned them down. He said he wouldn't go, unless he would be starter..or backup. So, I don't see them offering him a position on the team.

[Newfie John]

You have to remember this one fact about the Worlds..

There was no regular hockey season. Many players hadn't played all year.

Jovo was bad, as were others. But, I dont think since they were..they are out of the race.

BTW I'd rather take Aucoin over Bouwmeester and Phillips. And no Johnny, not Souray ;)

I'd take Aucoin over Phillips.

Jovo has been bad this regular season defensively aswell, and wasn't great(taking himself out of position) the year before the lockout. The guy hasn't ever been great defensively.

Neither was Mccabe for that matter, except for this season. If he keeps it up he'll be on the Olympic squad.

[Yoata]

So, did you read the reasoning? ;)

I'm not saying Joseph will be there. But I am saying he has as good a chance as any other 3rd string goalie.

Remember, the 3rd string will likely not play. Its more of a respect thing, like they did with Belfour in 2002.

Theodore was to go to the Worlds as a 3rd string, but he turned them down. He said he wouldn't go, unless he would be starter..or backup. So, I don't see them offering him a position on the team.

I disagree, muttjo didn't even ride the pine after the first game, he was in the bleachers, I seriously would not even want this career choker to be an injury insurance, besides he doesn't deserve it.

There are others better than curjo, even if Theodore doesn't go, Belfour,Turco, Legace, and others.

[Yoata]

I'd take Aucoin over Phillips.

Jovo has been bad this regular season defensively aswell, and wasn't great(taking himself out of position) the year before the lockout. The guy hasn't ever been great defensively.

Neither was Mccabe for that matter, except for this season. If he keeps it up he'll be on the Olympic squad.

NJ, seriously, you have to stop confusing offense with defense, the guy has 15 points but is a -1, that is anything but being great defensively, please.:rolleyes:

[Newfie John]

NJ, seriously, you have to stop confusing offense with defense, the guy has 15 points but is a -1, that is anything but being great defensively, please.:rolleyes:

+/- has no bearing. You have 4 other guys on the ice plus a goaltender. It's a team statistic. Belfour, along with the leafs D zone coverage(except for the game vs Philly, where it was ok) has been horrible. Mccabe individually has been good. He's made some real solid plays and hasn't had many, if any cramps. Actually I remember one, he tried to glove down a shot from the point and instead of catching it, it deflected off his glove into the net.

[Yoata]

+/- has no bearing??? Why because it reflects poorly on McPivot???

It is a team AND an individual stat, compared to the rest of the team it is a very valid indicator, there are two leaf dmen at +2, both with less points than McPivot. (probably the reason they have less points is that they are actually playing SOME defense, not just acting like a 4th forward out there like McPivot (and Jovanovski tend to do).

Again, "offense"... "defense", they sound similar, but are in fact very different. ;)

[TimmyTabasco]

I'd take Aucoin over Phillips.

Jovo has been bad this regular season defensively aswell, and wasn't great(taking himself out of position) the year before the lockout. The guy hasn't ever been great defensively.

Neither was Mccabe for that matter, except for this season. If he keeps it up he'll be on the Olympic squad.

Yeah, but look at these guys

Blake
Minus 6

Niedermayer
Plus 1

Foote
Minus 4

Boyle
Minus 4

Agreed Jovo has never been that great defensively, but then again he is a offensive defenseman.

These guys above are usually very good defensively. However, its the new NHL..so many are not playing so well. Plus poor Foote is on Columbus :laughing:

[Newfie John]

+/- has no bearing??? Why because it reflects poorly on McPivot???

It is a team AND an individual stat, compared to the rest of the team it is a very valid indicator, there are two leaf dmen at +2, both with less points than McPivot. (probably the reason they have less points is that they are actually playing SOME defense, not just acting like a 4th forward out there like McPivot (and Jovanovski tend to do).

Again, "offense"... "defense", they sound similar, but are in fact very different. ;)

Take a look at the list Timmy compiled there. A lot of good defensive guys with poor +/-. It's useless.

Mccabe acting like a 4th forward? Now you're just being rediculous. How many leaf games have you seen. Almost all of his points have come from the point. A lot on the PP(which doesn't count in +/- too by the way).

[Yoata]

Yeah, but look at these guys

Blake
Minus 6

Niedermayer
Plus 1

Foote
Minus 4

Boyle
Minus 4

Agreed Jovo has never been that great defensively, but then again he is a offensive defenseman.

These guys above are usually very good defensively. However, its the new NHL..so many are not playing so well. Plus poor Foote is on Columbus :laughing:

True, Blake has struggled defensively, and Boyle at both ends, but both have something going for them that neither McPivot or Jovanoopsi have... that shiny silver thing they've both held over their heads at the end of the playoffs.

[Yoata]

Take a look at the list Timmy compiled there. A lot of good defensive guys with poor +/-. It's useless.

Mccabe acting like a 4th forward? Now you're just being rediculous. How many leaf games have you seen. Almost all of his points have come from the point. A lot on the PP(which doesn't count in +/- too by the way).

NJ, if it's so "useless" then why are the good teams always filled with players with good +/-, and the guys they do have with a poor +/- are easy to spot?

As I said, put into context of the team they're on, +/- can be very telling.

For example, the top 6 Canuck dmen have all played 10 games this season, they're playing well, so the top 5 range from +2 to +6, the other is even, now guess who by all accounts has been the weakest link on the Canuck blueline this season so far?

[Newfie John]

NJ, if it's so "useless" then why are the good teams always filled with players with good +/-, and the guys they do have with a poor +/- are easy to spot?

Because it's a team statistic. It is useful when determining a teams 5 on 5 capability.

As I said, put into context of the team they're on, +/- can be very telling.

Ok then. It's a team statistic. Mccabe is on the leafs. Eddie Belfour hasn't been playing well. That will hurt Mccabe's +/-. There are 4 other guys on the ice with Mccabe. All four guys(we'll be lucky to have 2) should be chipping in defensively on the D zone coverage. The leaf team hasn't been doing that setting up some goals for the other team. Another hit to Mccabe's statistic.

For example, the top 6 Canuck dmen have all played 10 games this season, they're playing well, so the top 5 range from +2 to +6, the other is even, now guess who by all accounts has been the weakest link on the Canuck blueline this season so far?

Vancouver is 8-1-1 IIRC. They've been playing well AS A TEAM. Therefore, their +/- will be good. The leafs team hasn't been playing well defensively. Mccabe is one of the few brightspots(Stajan and Steen are the others). The reason the leafs have won 5 games is because of the powerplay.

[Yoata]

NJ, as I said, it is BOTH a team AND an individual statistic (hence the reason INDIVIDUAL players get the stat).

Again, you have to put an individual's +/- into the CONTEXT of the team he's on, but that doesn't make it a "team only" stat.

Again with the Canucks, the range is even to +6, with the best d at the top, the weakest d at the bottom, and guess what, the stats support the play, Salo's been the best Nuck dman so far, and he's at +6, McCarthy has been conspicuously out of place on the team defense, and his team-worst even +/- reflects that.

I suppose Ed Belfour's 53 saves the other night hurt McPivot's +/-?

Now I remember why I put McCabe ahead of Jovo, despite his glaring errors at times, McCabe's actually had the best +/- amond dmen on the leaf 2 of the last 3 years, and was middle of the pack the other. Now that doesn't mean he's doing it this year, as he obviously isn't, but he's certainly shown more consistency than Jovanoopsi in that regard, so he gets the nod. (I know I've gone back and forth on this twice now, sue me again).

[Newfie John]

NJ, as I said, it is BOTH a team AND an individual statistic (hence the reason INDIVIDUAL players get the stat).

Again, you have to put an individual's +/- into the CONTEXT of the team he's on, but that doesn't make it a "team only" stat.

Again with the Canucks, the range is even to +6, with the best d at the top, the weakest d at the bottom, and guess what, the stats support the play, Salo's been the best Nuck dman so far, and he's at +6, McCarthy has been conspicuously out of place on the team defense, and his team-worst even +/- reflects that.

I understand what you're saying but it doesn't take away from the fact that when Sami Salo is on the ice, there are 4 other people out there who all have defensive responsibilities. Salo is a +6, he's had help from all 4 guys out there. That's what the leafs aren't doing. The defensive zone coverage from all guys out there pales in comparison to that of Vancouver's. Thats also why they've gotten away with a respectable team with a goaltender like Cloutier.

Mccabe has been playing well defensively. If you watched him play, without doubt you'd notice that. The help from the forwards is almost non-existant, especially from the Tucker, Allison and O'neill line. The only forwards who do a good job is the youngsters Alex Steen and Matt Stajan. With the ugliness of Toronto's D zone coverage, it almost looks like the opposite team is on a powerplay when the offense gets set up. Why? The forwards aren't doing their jobs. Their job is to score yes, but they also have to cover their ass in the defensive zone. 2 forwards have to cover the points, the other has to go in and help the defence. This isn't happening. Too many times the defence has been left down there alone, and by the time the forwards are where they're supposed to be, it's already behind Eddie.

I suppose Ed Belfour's 53 saves the other night hurt McPivot's +/-?

That, and the first game of the season were his only good games. The rest he hasn't been good. Take a look at his stats. Now that you mention it though, the 53 shots against only prove my point more. A team that has good team defence wouldn't allow that kind of shot count. But no, it's all Mccabe's fault.

Now I remember why I put McCabe ahead of Jovo, despite his glaring errors at times, McCabe's actually had the best +/- amond dmen on the leaf 2 of the last 3 years, and was middle of the pack the other. Now that doesn't mean he's doing it this year, as he obviously isn't, but he's certainly shown more consistency than Jovanoopsi in that regard, so he gets the nod. (I know I've gone back and forth on this twice now, sue me again).

The leafs' D zone coverage hasn't ever been this bad while Eddie's been here. We had guys like Travis Green, Tom Fitzgerald, Gary Roberts came back and helped out very well. While it still wasn't great it was good enough considering our goaltender. This season, our goaltender has been inconsistant. Our D zone coverage has been bad. The only reason we've won 5 games is because of our powerplay, which Mccabe has also been a big part of. Mccabe has been a stud this season thus far.

[Newfie John]

I know I may sound like a broken record for saying this, but if +/- is so useful, why did Jyrki Lumme, or Marek Malik lead the league in it? Are they the best defensive defencemen in the league? Please.

[PDO]

I know I may sound like a broken record for saying this, but if +/- is so useful, why did Jyrki Lumme, or Marek Malik lead the league in it? Are they the best defensive defencemen in the league? Please.

+/- with TOUGH MINUTES is extremely useful. If someone like Chris Pronger has a whopping +/- he's doing an amazing job. You just can't look at the stat straight up, but in context.. it's what wins you games.

Short on time, but John, last time Brewer played for Canada at the World Cup he played with Foote on what was largely considered the best pairing Canada had the entire tournament.

Also, Yoata, do we care about flashiness or results? Ryan Smyth has been playing harder minutes than Draper for ages and putting up better offensive numbers. Yes, he's not flashy about it.. he's smart about it. He wins every battle for the puck and never turns the puck over in a dangerous area. Check the shift charts, because with linemates consisting of Shawn Horcoff and Fernando Pisani he has been consistently outscoring the otherteams top line and putting up 60P in roughly 70 GP. That's just one example of many players in the league who consistently accomplish the exact same thing Draper does while getting next to no credit for it.

[Yoata]

especially from the Tucker, Allison and O'neill line. The only forwards who do a good job is the youngsters Alex Steen and Matt Stajan.

Funny guess which players have the best and worst +/- on the leaf?

A team that has good team defence wouldn't allow that kind of shot count.

Wait a second, McCabe plays half the game, are you saying the majority of those shots come during the other half of the game??? And now it's team defence that's lacking, but before it was Belfour? Lot of excuses flying all in the name of McCabe's poor +/-.


The only reason we've won 5 games is because of our powerplay, which Mccabe has also been a big part of. Mccabe has been a stud this season thus far.

OFFENSIVELY, yes, nobody's denying that, but again, defense is a whole other story, that's the point.

[Yoata]

I know I may sound like a broken record for saying this, but if +/- is so useful, why did Jyrki Lumme, or Marek Malik lead the league in it? Are they the best defensive defencemen in the league? Please.

NO, because you have to take the team into CONTEXT, I've said that how many times now?

Quite simply stated, especially among the top 4 dmen on any team, who all typically play a lot even strength and play more than any forward, and therefore eventually with multiple forward lines at even strength, a comparison among them for the season should tell you a lot about who is more/less defensively capable than the others, especially if you investigate further by looking into the even strength points scored, as obviously that factors into the + part.

Personally I think it would be more telling with regard to defense if they kept track of the - seperately, including PP and SH.

[Newfie John]

Funny guess which players have the best and worst +/- on the leaf?

They're forwards. It's either they do their job defensively or they don't. The defencmen are always trying defensively but if the forwards aren't chipping in there's no use.



Wait a second, McCabe plays half the game, are you saying the majority of those shots come during the other half of the game??? And now it's team defence that's lacking, but before it was Belfour? Lot of excuses flying all in the name of McCabe's poor +/-.

There are a lot of excuses flying around about the effectiveness of the +/- aswell. I don't know when you're going to get this through your head. Mccabe can't stop the Bruins by himself. Yes, he's out there half the game. Yes, Boston did get 53 shots. Why? Because of Mccabe? Hell no. He's one of the guys doing his job. Like I said before and I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it until it gets through your head. There are 4 other guys out there on the ice. They all contribute to defensive zone coverage. One man can't do it by himself defensively. When the forwards get a bit lazy, the defencemen get the brunt of the storm. This is exactly what happened in the Boston game. Usually it's a combination of both(the games we lose) Belfour and the D zone coverage, vs Boston Belfour was huge covering up for the lack of D. He has to do that if the leaf players are going to continue to play that way.

Main point is that Mccabe is one of the 5 guys out there on the ice. The other 4 guys out there plus the goaltender all contribute to how Mccabe's +/-will be. Notice that when guys who are doing their jobs(Steen, Stajan) are out there, Mccabe does well, as does Steen and Stajan. It's how a unit is supposed to work. Not having Jason Allison come back and stand there and wonder what he's going to do now. Mccabe does get stuck out there with that line a lot too. Stajan and Steen are on with Berg a lot, to try and neutralize the damage that Berg does.


OFFENSIVELY, yes, nobody's denying that, but again, defense is a whole other story, that's the point.

He's covered his end defensively. Find me an instance where a goal has been his fault during the scheme of things in defensive zone coverage? He's done it once, and it was a wierd play where the puck went off his glove. Other then that, he's been great, on both ends of the ice.

[Newfie John]

NO, because you have to take the team into CONTEXT, I've said that how many times now?

Quite simply stated, especially among the top 4 dmen on any team, who all typically play a lot even strength and play more than any forward, and therefore eventually with multiple forward lines at even strength, a comparison among them for the season should tell you a lot about who is more/less defensively capable than the others, especially if you investigate further by looking into the even strength points scored, as obviously that factors into the + part.

Personally I think it would be more telling with regard to defense if they kept track of the - seperately, including PP and SH.

You keep talking about the d men and only the d men. Do you realize there are other players out there on the ice that play an intregral role? If they don't play that role, there's nothing the defencemen can do.

[Yoata]

They're forwards. It's either they do their job defensively or they don't. The defencmen are always trying defensively but if the forwards aren't chipping in there's no use.

WTF does that have to do with the fact that the very guys you mention as being good defensively have the best +/- on the leaf, and the very guys that you mention as being poor defensively have the worst +/- on the leaf???


There are a lot of excuses flying around about the effectiveness of the +/- aswell. I don't know when you're going to get this through your head. Mccabe can't stop the Bruins by himself. Yes, he's out there half the game. Yes, Boston did get 53 shots. Why? Because of Mccabe? Hell no. He's one of the guys doing his job. Like I said before and I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it until it gets through your head. There are 4 other guys out there on the ice. They all contribute to defensive zone coverage. One man can't do it by himself defensively. When the forwards get a bit lazy, the defencemen get the brunt of the storm. This is exactly what happened in the Boston game. Usually it's a combination of both(the games we lose) Belfour and the D zone coverage, vs Boston Belfour was huge covering up for the lack of D. He has to do that if the leaf players are going to continue to play that way.
Main point is that Mccabe is one of the 5 guys out there on the ice. The other 4 guys out there plus the goaltender all contribute to how Mccabe's +/-will be. Notice that when guys who are doing their jobs(Steen, Stajan) are out there, Mccabe does well, as does Steen and Stajan. It's how a unit is supposed to work. Not having Jason Allison come back and stand there and wonder what he's going to do now. Mccabe does get stuck out there with that line a lot too. Stajan and Steen are on with Berg a lot, to try and neutralize the damage that Berg does.

blah blah blah, seriously man you contradict yourself with every post. First it's the goaltender's fault McCabe has a lousy +/-, then it's the TEAM defence (which apparently he's not a part of, even though when it comes to his INDIVIDUAL +/-, it's the team's fault???

Whatever, like I said, lots of excuses, but the FACT remains, McCabe is a -1 despite all those points hes getting.

He's covered his end defensively. Find me an instance where a goal has been his fault during the scheme of things in defensive zone coverage? He's done it once, and it was a wierd play where the puck went off his glove. Other then that, he's been great, on both ends of the ice

Glad you think so, but don't expect every one else to based solely on your highly biased anecdotal say so.

[Yoata]

You keep talking about the d men and only the d men. Do you realize there are other players out there on the ice that play an intregral role? If they don't play that role, there's nothing the defencemen can do.

I'm COMPARING dmen to dmen, that's how this started remember? Would it make more sense to you to compare dmen to forwards???

[Max Power]

NJ, if it's so "useless" then why are the good teams always filled with players with good +/-, and the guys they do have with a poor +/- are easy to spot?
As I said, put into context of the team they're on, +/- can be very telling.
For example, the top 6 Canuck dmen have all played 10 games this season, they're playing well, so the top 5 range from +2 to +6, the other is even, now guess who by all accounts has been the weakest link on the Canuck blueline this season so far?

This is a good point and I tested it by looking at the Sens stats. My guess was that Redden and Volchenkov our best looking pairing this far in the season had the best +/- and Pothier and Meszaros (Pothier having the most noticeable mistakes) had the worst +/-
After looking, the first pairing has a combined +11 and the second has +4. Of that +4 Meszaros has 4 and Pothier has 0

If this isn't proof of what Yota is saying is right on then I don't know what is. Not only this but in Ottawa's case defensive pairings never play consistently with any set of forwards so the argument that forwards have something to do with it can be scratched

[Yoata]

This is a good point and I tested it by looking at the Sens stats. My guess was that Redden and Volchenkov our best looking pairing this far in the season had the best +/- and Pothier and Meszaros (Pothier having the most noticeable mistakes) had the worst +/-
After looking, the first pairing has a combined +11 and the second has +4. Of that +4 Meszaros has 4 and Pothier has 0

If this isn't proof of what Yota is saying is right on then I don't know what is. Not only this but in Ottawa's case defensive pairings never play consistently with any set of forwards so the argument that forwards have something to do with it can be scratched

Exactly! :thumb:

[Newfie John]

WTF does that have to do with the fact that the very guys you mention as being good defensively have the best +/- on the leaf, and the very guys that you mention as being poor defensively have the worst +/- on the leaf???

The point I was making that the reason Stajan's and Steen's +/- is higher is because they're doing their jobs. I think the +/- does have some use when using it for forwards and judging them on their defensive play, when they're playing with good defencemen. If Mccabe was playing with Stajan and Steen all the time, his +/- would be very high, because he's doing his job, and so are the forwards. But when Mccabe is out there and you have guys like Allison and O'neill doing basically nothing, what is Mccabe to do? There's nothing he can do, and the +/- faulters.




blah blah blah, seriously man you contradict yourself with every post. First it's the goaltender's fault McCabe has a lousy +/-, then it's the TEAM defence (which apparently he's not a part of, even though when it comes to his INDIVIDUAL +/-, it's the team's fault???

Blah blah blah? Thats what you have to say to reply to that? You're just turning your head and listening(or seeing) what you want to hear(or see on the screen.lol) I never said it was JUST the goalie, and I never said it was JUST the D zone coverage. It's a combination of both. Different games have different situations. In the season opener and the game against Boston, Eddie played well. It was mostly the D zone's coverage's fault. In other games it was a combination of both.

Whatever, like I said, lots of excuses, but the FACT remains, McCabe is a -1 despite all those points hes getting.

Most of those points he's gotten are on the PP, which do not count toward +/-. Like I said again, if he had someone to help him out on D, his +/- would be better. If you watched the game, and just didn't watch the play and just watch Mccabe, you'd see that he's covering his end, doing his job. He can't cover all 5 guys out there. Other guys on his team on the ice are supposed to help. A lot of the time the forwards on the line aren't doing their jobs and the other team gets a goal. What is Mccabe to do?

I'll give you a hypothetical example. It's a game against Ottawa. Mccabe is in the corner covering Alfredsson, he's doing a good job(just like he's been doing the whole year). Alfredsson has the puck but he can't get near the net because Mccabe is playing tight D. Wade Redden shoots down from the point and scores from a pass from Alfredsson. Redden was wide open in front of the net. Jason Allison wasn't covering his man. That's a -1 on Mccabe's total. This is what has been happening with the leafs. The defensive zone coverage hasn't been good and too many guys are open because of guys like Allison standing there doing nothing. I don't know why I explained this to you because all you're going to do is say.. "blah blah blah" and disregard it even though its true. If you watched the games you'd know its true. The game isn't as black and white as it seems to you, if you're going to determine how a player is playing by a statistic which heavily depends on the players you're out there with.

Glad you think so, but don't expect every one else to based solely on your highly biased anecdotal say so.

The people who watched the games would agree with me, because it's true. You obviously haven't watched any of these games, either that or you're not watching closely enough, and then you get on the computer and look at the stats and base everything on that.

[Newfie John]

This is a good point and I tested it by looking at the Sens stats. My guess was that Redden and Volchenkov our best looking pairing this far in the season had the best +/- and Pothier and Meszaros (Pothier having the most noticeable mistakes) had the worst +/-
After looking, the first pairing has a combined +11 and the second has +4. Of that +4 Meszaros has 4 and Pothier has 0

If this isn't proof of what Yota is saying is right on then I don't know what is. Not only this but in Ottawa's case defensive pairings never play consistently with any set of forwards so the argument that forwards have something to do with it can be scratched

Forwards have nothing to do with defensive responsibility? Ok, I've heard it all now.

[Max Power]

Forwards have nothing to do with defensive responsibility? Ok, I've heard it all now.

Please John you damn well know that wasn?t the point

[bluemeanie]

Forwards have nothing to do with defensive responsibility? Ok, I've heard it all now.

I bet you haven't heard about the green bunny that was driving the golf cart who bought a Walkman? from a homeless priest in fish net stockings at the Arkansas Quilt convention!?!

Anyhow, we be waaay off topic now.

[Yoata]

Please John you damn well know that wasn?t the point

I'm really starting to think that maybe he doesn't...

[Newfie John]

Please John you damn well know that wasn?t the point

What you pretty much said is that because defensive pairings do not consistantly play with the same forward lines, the logic that forwards effect a defencemen's +/- is false. Is that what you're saying? It's wrong on so many levels. If I'm confused here, explain it to me. That's the way I perceived it.

[Max Power]

What you pretty much said is that because defensive pairings do not consistantly play with the same forward lines, the logic that forwards effect a defencemen's +/- is false. Is that what you're saying? It's wrong on so many levels. If I'm confused here, explain it to me. That's the way I perceived it.

No I'm saying the D mans +/- numbers are heavily weighed on how well he plays in the defensive zone.
Wade Redden plays 20 + minutes a game and has a +6. Pothier plays 10 min a game and has a 0 and he plays with the exact same forwards as Redden does.
I know Redden plays much better defensively then Pothier and I know Pothier has made a number of defensive mistakes. I also know Redden has played very solid so far this year. Also Redden has been by far our best D man and Pothier has been our worse. Both their numbers reflect this as Redden is on top of the +/- and Pothier is at the bottom for D men. I’m not saying the +/- system is perfect and people should live by it… All I’m saying is that it has some credibility on how well a D man is playing for his team. If I didn’t know or watch the Sens I could look at the D men’s +/- and accurately know who has played the best so far defensively this season

That’s my point and I won’t argue it any further =]

[MadDevil]

Hmmm...is the "Team Canada" thread or the "Battle Of Ontario" thread?:D

Back on topic, my roster is pretty similar to those posted already:

Nash - Sakic - Iginla
Lecavalier - Richards - St. Louis
Smyth - Thornton - Heatley
Gagne - Spezza - Lemieux

Spares: Kariya, Bertuzzi, Doan, Murray, Madden (yes, I'm biased)

Pronger - Blake
Niedermayer - Foote
Redden - Boynton

Spares: Bouwmeester, Jovanovski, McCabe, Brewer

Brodeur (if he falters early, Luongo gets the nod)
Luongo
Turco

Spares: Theodore, Belfour

[Madferret]

I guess all that McCabe nonsense will go away now, finally. One game is a real eye-opener sometimes eh..

[Newfie John]

I guess all that McCabe nonsense will go away now, finally. One game is a real eye-opener sometimes eh..

Yeah, lets throw away a whole season based on one game. Reminds me of what you guys said about Mccabe against Philly in last years playoffs. One game. He's been good this year, on both ends of the ice. Last night vs Florida, he sucked. No doubt. Every player has their bad games. If this continues then I'll agree with you.

Chara had a bad start, should we base the rest of the year on him? He's starting to pick it up now. This is Mccabe's first glaring game like this, lets not judge the rest of the year over this.

When I seen the highlights I knew you would post something like that. I'm postin from school, computer is broke at home.

[Madferret]

Yeah, lets throw away a whole season based on one game. Reminds me of what you guys said about Mccabe against Philly in last years playoffs. One game. He's been good this year, on both ends of the ice. Last night vs Florida, he sucked. No doubt. Every player has their bad games. If this continues then I'll agree with you.

Chara had a bad start, should we base the rest of the year on him? He's starting to pick it up now. This is Mccabe's first glaring game like this, lets not judge the rest of the year over this.

When I seen the highlights I knew you would post something like that. I'm postin from school, computer is broke at home.

What about last night's effort?
He looked real good on Roberts goal. He made a nice pass to Jokinen at the end. He's a -4 now. 13 of his 15 pts are on the power play. I'm noticing a trend, if the Leafs don't get a dozen pp's or if McCabe puts up no pp points, he has a bad game.

- Tough about your CPU, mine was down from Thursday to yesterday...

[Max Power]

According to the Team 1200 this morning Quinn was quoted saying Spezza might not get the nod for team Canada this winter. He said Spezza is too weak defensively!? OK Martin
This is a joke i.e. Nash
This would by far be one of team Canada?s biggest mistakes if they take the advise of dumb ass bias Quinn. One of the best duos on the ice so far this year and both can be utilized for team Canada on the same line and Quinn is saying this is a bad idea. Great coaching instinct Quinn

[wildboy26]

I think it is a joke that Rick Nash will probably not be picked for the team. He should not only be on the team but be on the first two lines, but he will end up not being picked or being the 13rd forward which is not fair.

[Max Power]

I think it is a joke that Rick Nash will probably not be picked for the team. He should not only be on the team but be on the first two lines, but he will end up not being picked or being the 13rd forward which is not fair.

Nash should make it providing he plays well once he returns. My comment above was not suggesting he should not. It was simply pointing out that he's awful defensively but was a key player for Canada in international tournaments.

[wildboy26]

Nash should make it providing he plays well once he returns. My comment above was not suggesting he should not. It was simply pointing out that he's awful defensively but was a key player for Canada in international tournaments.?

I was not implying that you were indicating Nash would not make the team. Those are my own conclusions, he will be left off the team unfairly and it is not right, I am confident I will be right on that, and it is very wrong. I know what you meant however.

I dont agree Nash is awful defensively, one shouldnt go by his -rating since he is with a weaker NHL team, unless you compare it to teammates. I agree his defense is not his forte, as his offense, but it is reasonable. I believe Spezza is much more suspect defensively, and would agree with him being left of the team. I dont know what they will decide on him though, all I know is Nash will be left of the team, or be only 13th forward, although he should be on the top 2 lines.

[Max Power]

?

I was not implying that you were indicating Nash would not make the team. Those are my own conclusions, he will be left off the team unfairly and it is not right, I am confident I will be right on that, and it is very wrong. I know what you meant however.

I dont agree Nash is awful defensively, one shouldnt go by his -rating since he is with a weaker NHL team, unless you compare it to teammates. I agree his defense is not his forte, as his offense, but it is reasonable. I believe Spezza is much more suspect defensively, and would agree with him being left of the team. I dont know what they will decide on him though, all I know is Nash will be left of the team, or be only 13th forward, although he should be on the top 2 lines.

Nash is on a weaker team defensively but I don't buy that Spezza is weaker then him. I've watch Spezza play every game and nothing has ever lead me to believe he is especially bad defensively. He does have his blunders and I won?t say he?s good in any way but for his age and offensive capability he?s not as bad as some like to say.
Another thing that Spezza has so far been amazing at this year is face-offs. This is by far an underrated skill and could make a big difference in such a shot tournament.

[Madferret]

Again with this @ss backwards mentality.
Let's take a look at a crappy defensmen who's great offensively and not take a great foward because he's suspect defensively.
WTF?..?..?..

:curse: :curse:

[PDO]

Nash weak defensively? :laughing:

Yeah.. check his #'s. Weak defensively is a compliment. When he's on the ice, every single player on the ice with his see's their +/- drop.

Spezza not being on this team would be as dumb as a move as Thornton not being on it the last time around..

I still think Gretzky gets far too much credit for doing a job that anyone could do.

[wildboy26]

Nash not being on the team would be a dumber move than Spezza not being on the team. Nash was one of the two best players at the World Championships last year, and is one of the best goal scorers if he is healthy, Spezza has proven himself one of the top snipers for only a couple months. Nash not being on the team would be a bigger injustince than Spezza not, yet I know for sure Nash wont be picked for the team. It is crazy that he wont; and I agree Grexty gets way too much credit for the job he does, just because he is the best player ever does not mean he is the best at other things.

[bluemeanie]

Spezza has proven himself one of the top snipers for only a couple months.


Couple of months, couple of years...

Jason Spezza

Year Team Lea GP G A Pts +/- PIM S S% PPG
2005-06 Ottawa NHL 10?? 5?? 13?? 18?? +8?? 2?? 31? 16.1? 1.80
2004-05 Binghamton AHL 80?? 32?? 85?? 117?? +18?? 50?? 202? 15.8? 1.46
2003-04 Ottawa NHL 78?? 22?? 33?? 55?? +22?? 71?? 142? 15.5? 0.7

[Yoata]

Nash weak defensively? :laughing:

Yeah.. check his #'s. Weak defensively is a compliment. When he's on the ice, every single player on the ice with his see's their +/- drop.

Spezza not being on this team would be as dumb as a move as Thornton not being on it the last time around..

I still think Gretzky gets far too much credit for doing a job that anyone could do.


PDO knows.

[Max Power]

Nash not being on the team would be a dumber move than Spezza not being on the team. Nash was one of the two best players at the World Championships last year, and is one of the best goal scorers if he is healthy, Spezza has proven himself one of the top snipers for only a couple months. Nash not being on the team would be a bigger injustince than Spezza not, yet I know for sure Nash wont be picked for the team. It is crazy that he wont; and I agree Grexty gets way too much credit for the job he does, just because he is the best player ever does not mean he is the best at other things.

Like Blue said Spezza has not just been good this year. I'll predict Nash will get the call if he starts to play well and does so until December. As far as Spezza's concerned my only argument is that team Canada will be more successful if they can pair up top players who already play together. Throw a guy like Gagne on a line with them who is solid defensively and IMO this line would be very dangerous.

[bluemeanie]

Couple of months, couple of years...

Jason Spezza

Year Team Lea GP G A Pts +/- PIM S S% PPG
2005-06 Ottawa NHL 10?? 5?? 13?? 18?? +8?? 2?? 31? 16.1? 1.80
2004-05 Binghamton AHL 80?? 32?? 85?? 117?? +18?? 50?? 202? 15.8? 1.46
2003-04 Ottawa NHL 78?? 22?? 33?? 55?? +22?? 71?? 142? 15.5? 0.71

Nash's numbers over the same period of time:


Rick Nash

Year Team Lea GP G A Pts +/- PIM S S% PPG
2005-06 Columbus NHL 2?? 0?? 0?? 0?? -1?? 0?? 5? 0.0? 0.00
2004-05 HC Davos Swi 44?? 26?? 20?? 46?? -?? 83?? -? -? 1.05
2003-04 Columbus NHL 80?? 41?? 16?? 57?? -35?? 87?? 269? 15.2? 0.71

I like both these guys, and it would be a farce to see either of them not make the team. Nash played very well for us last time, and Spezza has shown this year that he can lead and dominate a game as well as anyone.
Gretzky will be watching both guys closely this year.

[Newfie John]

If Spezza doesn't make the team that would be just plain wrong. He could win the Art Ross this year, IMO.

If Mccabe can go back to his pre-last 2 games form, he should make it. But if his nonsense is back to stay well he could be riding the pine. He may make it as a PP specialist though. At the olympic level, Mccabe would probably be a specialist type player.

[PDO]

If Mccabe can go back to his pre-last 2 games form, he should make it. But if his nonsense is back to stay well he could be riding the pine. He may make it as a PP specialist though. At the olympic level, Mccabe would probably be a specialist type player.

Why do we need a PP specialist.. espeacilly one who's on the backend?

A good PP uses 4 forwards. It's a fact.. check out the %'s and you'll see.

That means we need TWO defenseman to be able to play the point on the PP.

3 locks for the Canadian D: Pronger, Blake, Niedermayer.

Whoops. :boogie:

Also.. I never said Nash shouldn't be on the team, I simply said that he is not a player who generaly scores more goals than he causes in his own end.. hence why he's not an elite player at this time. However, put him with the right players who can make up for his giveaways, and get him to play half-way decent defense and you can make up for it. Espeacilly considering since 03-04 he has most likely become a much more well rounded player and that he's a LW.

[TimmyTabasco]

Adrian Aucoin should be there, IMO

This guy is a complete defenseman. Plus he has played for team canada in the past.

[MadDevil]

Adrian Aucoin should be there, IMO

This guy is a complete defenseman. Plus he has played for team canada in the past.

Good point TT. It must be great to have to worry about which top quality defenseman to leave off the team.:laughing:

[wildboy26]

I cant see the 12 forwards for team Canada not being Lemieux, Yzerman, Gagne, Sakic, Iginla, Bertuzzi, Thorton, LeCavier, Smyth, Doan, Spezza, Heatley. So there will be no room for Nash on the team. In fact should 1 or 2 of those get injured, Staal and Crosby will probably be next in line. I would be willing to be money on Nash not making the team.

As for Spezza's defensive play, I have watched him with Ottawa, and I have watched Nash from the World Championships, although I have not seen him play much from Columbus. Perhaps if I saw more of his games in the NHL I would see more of his defensive liability, and perhaps he was with linemates that helped him mask it the times I have seen him at Worlds, especialy last year. From what I have seen from both in those games, I find Spezza more of a defensive liability, but again I have not seen much of Nash except in international play.

[Madferret]

As for Spezza's defensive play, I have watched him with Ottawa, and I have watched Nash from the World Championships, although I have not seen him play much from Columbus. Perhaps if I saw more of his games in the NHL I would see more of his defensive liability, and perhaps he was with linemates that helped him mask it the times I have seen him at Worlds, especialy last year. From what I have seen from both in those games, I find Spezza more of a defensive liability, but again I have not seen much of Nash except in international play.

wb26 if I may ask what exactly about Spezza's defensive play do you find 'liable'. Feel free to include some examples.

[Yoata]

I cant see the 12 forwards for team Canada not being Lemieux, Yzerman, Gagne, Sakic, Iginla, Bertuzzi, Thorton, LeCavier, Smyth, Doan, Spezza, Heatley. So there will be no room for Nash on the team. In fact should 1 or 2 of those get injured, Staal and Crosby will probably be next in line. I would be willing to be money on Nash not making the team.

As for Spezza's defensive play, I have watched him with Ottawa, and I have watched Nash from the World Championships, although I have not seen him play much from Columbus. Perhaps if I saw more of his games in the NHL I would see more of his defensive liability, and perhaps he was with linemates that helped him mask it the times I have seen him at Worlds, especialy last year. From what I have seen from both in those games, I find Spezza more of a defensive liability, but again I have not seen much of Nash except in international play.

Again, I just can't believe any wingers, let alone the likes of Smyth and Doan, are being touted above Hart, Pearson and Art Ross winning winger Martin St. Louis??? :eyebug:

Or how anybody can slot Lecavalier in but not Richards??? :no:

[Man.Utd]

In regards to Spezza, I more than trust him in our own end now. He's no stalwart, but he never will be and he's good enough to get by right now. The problem is the giveaways in the offensive zone.

[Madferret]

In regards to Spezza, I more than trust him in our own end now. He's no stalwart, but he never will be and he's good enough to get by right now. The problem is the giveaways in the offensive zone.

He made a quick stop to the blind drop pass that littered the first BOO of this campaign.

[PDO]

Again, I just can't believe any wingers, let alone the likes of Smyth and Doan, are being touted above Hart, Pearson and Art Ross winning winger Martin St. Louis??? :eyebug:

Or how anybody can slot Lecavalier in but not Richards??? :no:

Ryan Smyth, aka the guy who can be a PPG playing with Horcoff and Pisani against the other teams top line every night. A top 5 natural LW to boot.

Richards who had a great playoff and became a God for it?

Not that hard to understand if you ask me. Although, Shane Doan is fiarly over-rated.. his #'s go to crap when not with Langkow or Nagy.

Martin St. Louis also has the huge advantage of playing with an amazing center every time he is on the ice. Although it doesn't seem to be doing much good for him this year...



Pos Player Team GP G A P +/-
C VINCENT LECAVALIER TBL 13 8 8 16 8
C BRAD RICHARDS TBL 13 5 10 15 4
R MARTIN ST. LOUIS TBL 13 4 5 9 3

St. Louis.. bleh.

[wildboy26]

I dont think St. Louis should be considered unless he picks up his play significantly. As for his Hart, Art Ross, etc....year, not taking anything away from that great year, and that he still is a very good and important player, I think the general feeling is that was a bit of a fluke year for him.

As for Spezza defensively, I still find he gives up some bad turnovers, and he doesnt clear the puck out of his own end that well when he has too.
Just my opinion.

[wildboy26]

So, did you read the reasoning? ;)

I'm not saying Joseph will be there. But I am saying he has as good a chance as any other 3rd string goalie.

Remember, the 3rd string will likely not play. Its more of a respect thing, like they did with Belfour in 2002.

Theodore was to go to the Worlds as a 3rd string, but he turned them down. He said he wouldn't go, unless he would be starter..or backup. So, I don't see them offering him a position on the team.

Are you sure about Theodore turning down a 3rd string job for Worlds? What I was aware of was that he told them he was injured so couldnt play, or was that a phantom injury. :wicked:

Anyway Joseph wont be the 3rd goalie, but I agree with you that it wont be Theo. It will be Belfour or Turco. Theo is still a very good goalie, but his star has faded since his dream year of 2002 where he should have made the team. Also I dont sense he has a good attitude about being restricted to no higher than a #3 choice.

[Max Power]

One thing I don?t like is Yzerman on the team. He is one of my all time favorite players but this tournament isn?t about popularity. We need the younger players as we already have a long list of vets and leaders who have better legs then Yzerman. I hope he turns down the invite in favour of staying healthy for his team

[Yoata]

Ryan Smyth, aka the guy who can be a PPG playing with Horcoff and Pisani against the other teams top line every night. A top 5 natural LW to boot.

Richards who had a great playoff and became a God for it?

Not that hard to understand if you ask me. Although, Shane Doan is fiarly over-rated.. his #'s go to crap when not with Langkow or Nagy.

Martin St. Louis also has the huge advantage of playing with an amazing center every time he is on the ice. Although it doesn't seem to be doing much good for him this year...



Pos Player Team GP G A P +/-
C VINCENT LECAVALIER TBL 13 8 8 16 8
C BRAD RICHARDS TBL 13 5 10 15 4
R MARTIN ST. LOUIS TBL 13 4 5 9 3

St. Louis.. bleh.

Yeah, I'm sure your bias has nothing to do with picking Smyth over St.Louis :rolleyes: Ryan Smyth has never come close to the kind of production St.Louis has, even when he had Doug Weight in his prime as a linemate, not to mention the fact that St. Louis has WON A CUP. And if by some miracle Smyth had been the best player in the game last season :laughing: but got off to a slow start while St. Louis scored a few points early??? :coffee:

Name one player ever who just "fluked out" and won the Hart, Ross and Pearson, let alone being a big part of a cup win? :confused:

So Flakeavalier having 1 more point than Richards so far this season means he gets the nod despite Richards outplaying him regular season and playoffs ever since the 2 have been in the league together???:shrug: And Richards is an "amazing center" when it comes to your argument that he helps St. Louis so much, but when it suits your other argument for Flakeavalier he just had a good playoff and "became a God for it". :shrug:

[wildboy26]

I dont think Sidney Crosby deserves to be on the team either. Other players who were good enough to possably make the team, but didnt have the experience of others were made to wait their turn, he shouldnt be an exception. Plus there are still 15+ forwards in Canada better than them. People like Spezza and Staal are still playing superior to him right now, and are more worthy recipients. If Nash is healthy by December, and playing well, he is a more worthy choice. I certainly will believe if Crosby makes the team it is because of the hype machine and it would really be irritating.

I also am not sold on Yzerman or Bertuzzi being on the team personaly.
I would rather see all 3 Tampa Bay Lighting forwards on the team than them right now, although of the 3, I would have LeCavier, Richards, and St. Louis in that order right now.

[Madferret]

Based on this year's perfomance, I'd take Sid over Nash in a minute personally. We'll have to see if Gretz & Tambelleni call me though..

[wildboy26]

I said if Nash comes back and plays reasonably well, he should be over Crosby hands down, his performance at the World Championships last year should have far ahead already. Spezza and Staal should be over him too. There should be no room for Crosby on the team if it is picked fairly.

[TimmyTabasco]

I said if Nash comes back and plays reasonably well, he should be over Crosby hands down, his performance at the World Championships last year should have far ahead already. Spezza and Staal should be over him too. There should be no room for Crosby on the team if it is picked fairly.

I have to agree here

Crosby is alright, but there are far better choices for Team Canada

[Madferret]

I said if Nash comes back and plays reasonably well, he should be over Crosby hands down, his performance at the World Championships last year should have far ahead already. Spezza and Staal should be over him too. There should be no room for Crosby on the team if it is picked fairly.

Huh? I'm not going to argue how well Nash played 2 years ago for Canada at the IHWC, but he can't seem to get anything going this year. Sidney on the other hand is playing great, has had equal International success for Canada, so what's the problem?

[wildboy26]

Teams in the past have not been picked only on the year, but on past performances. Nash has payed his dues over the last couple years, and has more experience internationaly at the senior level than Crosby. Thus if he returns and even plays reasonable for a month, he should be over Crosby hands down. Staal, Spezza, and Heatley are all cleary superior to Crosby, as well as he has played, so far this year, and should be over him hands down too. There are many veterans more worthy of a spot on the team. Plus in the past players 21 or younger have been kept off due to less experience, who were closer to the top in points and other variables than he is right now. He does not deserve to be on the team any more than atleast 15+ forwards, that is my point. Thank you TimmyTabasco, you are dead right.

[Madferret]

Teams in the past have not been picked only on the year, but on past performances. Nash has payed his dues over the last couple years, and has more experience internationaly at the senior level than Crosby. Thus if he returns and even plays reasonable for a month, he should be over Crosby hands down. Staal, Spezza, and Heatley are all cleary superior to Crosby, as well as he has played, so far this year, and should be over him hands down too. There are many veterans more worthy of a spot on the team. Plus in the past players 21 or younger have been kept off due to less experience, who were closer to the top in points and other variables than he is right now. He does not deserve to be on the team any more than atleast 15+ forwards, that is my point. Thank you TimmyTabasco, you are dead right.

Sure, if Nash can get it together and start playing some Nash hockey, he should be called upon. If he can't, then I hope that the Team Canada brass leave the 'politics' out if this and keep him home.
Aside from the coaches, politics for the most part has stayed out of things with our International squad, don't start now.

[wildboy26]

If Thorton was not good enough to make the Olympic team of 2002, and if Nash was not good enough to make the World Cup of 2004, because of his age, Crosby isnt good enough this year to make the Olympic team this year unless he picks up even more. He has not been as good this year as Nash two years ago, and Thorton for years ago, relative to the rest of the leagues elite; so if both were seen fit to leave of due to their age or experience level Crosby should in no way be called upon, and if he is it is all politics IMHO.

[Madferret]

If Thorton was not good enough to make the Olympic team of 2002, and if Nash was not good enough to make the World Cup of 2004, because of his age, Crosby isnt good enough this year to make the Olympic team this year unless he picks up even more. He has not been as good this year as Nash two years ago, and Thorton for years ago, relative to the rest of the leagues elite; so if both were seen fit to leave of due to their age or experience level Crosby should in no way be called upon, and if he is it is all politics IMHO.

If Crosby continues to play well, and Nash continues to struggle, taking Crosby over Nash is not a 'politics' move.

[wildboy26]

If Crosby continues to play well, and Nash continues to struggle, taking Crosby over Nash is not a 'politics' move.

Even if Crosby is over Nash, and you ignore the fact I point out if Nash plays a good month of hockey in his comback, I could still name you well over 12 that deserve to be on the team over him, especialy since in the past newcomers had to do more than others to make the team.

[wildboy26]

If Crosby continues to play well, and Nash continues to struggle, taking Crosby over Nash is not a 'politics' move.

I also noticed you did not try to even debate my past examples of younger players who were playing better than he is now not making the team. I suppose you are not able to argue it. :wicked:

[Madferret]

I also noticed you did not try to even debate my past examples of younger players who were playing better than he is now not making the team. I suppose you are not able to argue it. :wicked:

Because I'm not debating with you why Thornton didn't get picked. Get it?
If Nash is struggling he shouldn't be picked. Get it?

[wildboy26]

Even if Nash is not picked, there are still more than 12 people that should be over Crosby, so he still should not be picked, get it? Funny how you keep returning to Nash, when I have already pointed that out.

I have a couple of friends in Toronto who work in a TV industry, and they told me they believe somebody like Crosby could be put on the team just due to TV ratings, which would be my first assumption if it happened.

[Madferret]

Even if Nash is not picked, there are still more than 12 people that should be over Crosby, so he still should not be picked, get it? Funny how you keep returning to Nash, when I have already pointed that out.

I have a couple of friends in Toronto who work in a TV industry, and they told me they believe somebody like Crosby could be put on the team just due to TV ratings, which would be my first assumption if it happened.

How does this sound..

If Nash continues to struggle, then the '12 people over Crosby', and Crosby himself, should be picked over him.

Better?

[wildboy26]

How does this sound, if Nash plays a month of reasonable hockey when he returns, he should be one of the 12+ people over Crosby hands down.

Better?

[Madferret]

How does this sound, if Nash plays a month of reasonable hockey when he returns, he should be one of the 12+ people over Crosby hands down.

Better?

I never said I disagree with that.

:shrug:

[MadDevil]

How about this...

Why don't we let the people in charge of Team Canada make the decisions? I think they might just know what they're doing.:thumb:

[wildboy26]

How about this...

Why don't we let the people in charge of Team Canada make the decisions? I think they might just know what they're doing.:thumb:

Obviously, we are just expressing our opinions, they will mean nothing in the end. :laughing: In 2002 they did a great job IMO, in 2004 they did not pick the best possable team, and we were lucky to beat the Czechs in the semis, they outplayed us in that game, and it was stictly a goaltending result; similar to how Canada outplayed the Czechs in the 98 Olympic semis, but Canada lost because they couldnt solve the greatest goaltender of all time, Dominik Hasek, at his best.

[MadDevil]

I wish Team USA had the difficulty of deciding which top player to leave off the roster.:laughing: :(

[wildboy26]

Hey the U.S team are leaving some pretty good players off arent they, good old timers like LeClair, Jeremy Roenick, Tony Amonte, Tchachuk, well maybe not that good anymore, but good old timers.....:laughing:

[PDO]

Yeah, I'm sure your bias has nothing to do with picking Smyth over St.Louis :rolleyes: Ryan Smyth has never come close to the kind of production St.Louis has, even when he had Doug Weight in his prime as a linemate, not to mention the fact that St. Louis has WON A CUP. And if by some miracle Smyth had been the best player in the game last season :laughing: but got off to a slow start while St. Louis scored a few points early??? :coffee:

If you don't think Smyth is a top 5 LW in the league, you're ignorant. Plain and simple, really. If St. Louis is *SO* amazing, then why the sheltered minutes? Who's the better player, the guy who can play against Modano and outscore him, or the guy who can play against Oleg Kvasha and outscore him? Please, there's a helluva lot more to this game than goals and assists, and St. Louis will never bring half the things to the table that Smyth does.

Name one player ever who just "fluked out" and won the Hart, Ross and Pearson, let alone being a big part of a cup win? :confused:

Lots of guys have been a flash in the pan. How about Jim Carey? Kevin Stevens? Mika Kiprusoff? Jose Theodore?

So Flakeavalier having 1 more point than Richards so far this season means he gets the nod despite Richards outplaying him regular season and playoffs ever since the 2 have been in the league together???:shrug: And Richards is an "amazing center" when it comes to your argument that he helps St. Louis so much, but when it suits your other argument for Flakeavalier he just had a good playoff and "became a God for it". :shrug:

Flakeavalier is almost funny, honest. Richards and Lecavalier are both great players, I simply believe that Lecavalier is a shade better, and has a higher upside. Richards didn't get any notice till he won the Conn Smythe in a lot of circles.. then he won that and everyone felt bad for not giving him attention before.

Do you have a real reason for dis-liking Lecavalier while loving the midget mooching off him?

[TimmyTabasco]

Lots of guys have been a flash in the pan. How about Jim Carey? Kevin Stevens? Mika Kiprusoff? Jose Theodore?


I wouldn't say Theo is a total flash in the pan. Sure, he has struggled since he won the Hart.

But he is still a solid top 10 NHL netminder.

[wildboy26]

Theodore is a very good NHL goaltender. He has never regained anything near his 2002 form though. I believe he should have been the starting goalie at the 2002 Olympics, or atleast on the team, but again benefits given to experience as I spoke about before. He has not come close to regaining that status. He could be a #3 on Team Canada behind Brodeur and Luongo if he were very sharp this year, and had a good attitude about it, but I get the impression he is better about that situation, and that does not bode well for his spot on the team. I think Belfour and Turco, who are both playing better than him so far this year, will likely take it.

[PDO]

I wouldn't say Theo is a total flash in the pan. Sure, he has struggled since he won the Hart.

But he is still a solid top 10 NHL netminder.

Yeah, but Theodore is a perfect example of what I am talking about.. a good player who had one amazing year.

[Madferret]

I think Belfour and Turco, who are both playing better than him so far this year, will likely take it.

I can't think of any two 'elite' goalies who are struggling more than these two, especially Belfour. I'd take Theo over Eddie in a fart.

[TimmyTabasco]

I can't think of any two 'elite' goalies who are struggling more than these two, especially Belfour. I'd take Theo over Eddie in a fart.

:laughing:

Well said.

[Yoata]

If you don't think Smyth is a top 5 LW in the league, you're ignorant. Plain and simple, really. If St. Louis is *SO* amazing, then why the sheltered minutes? Who's the better player, the guy who can play against Modano and outscore him, or the guy who can play against Oleg Kvasha and outscore him? Please, there's a helluva lot more to this game than goals and assists, and St. Louis will never bring half the things to the table that Smyth does.



Lots of guys have been a flash in the pan. How about Jim Carey? Kevin Stevens? Mika Kiprusoff? Jose Theodore?



Flakeavalier is almost funny, honest. Richards and Lecavalier are both great players, I simply believe that Lecavalier is a shade better, and has a higher upside. Richards didn't get any notice till he won the Conn Smythe in a lot of circles.. then he won that and everyone felt bad for not giving him attention before.

Do you have a real reason for dis-liking Lecavalier while loving the midget mooching off him?

Sheltered minutes??? :shrug: He played more minutes in every situation (ES,SH,PP) than Smyth did last season. If Smyth is so great "overall" why has he never even been even a 2nd team all-star???

Sorry but if you think Smyth is better than St.Louis, then you're the ignorant one, not to mention blatantly biased, really, honest. :rolleyes:

Again, name a single player who's "fluked out" and won those awards... :rolleyes: None of those you mentioned qualify, and you know it.

Great, you think Lecavalier is a "shade better" BFD, you also think Smyth is better than St.Louis :laughing: but, despite who got "noticed" and who didn't (perhaps that's your problem) the FACT is, Richards has outplayed Flakeboy with the on-again/off-again "I want to be traded" then "my heart's in TBay along with my now fat wallet", sh!t attitude, both regular season and playoffs, ever since they've both been in the league.

"Upside" is another word for unrealized potential, which is another term for overhyped, overrated, overpaid and underacheiving.

How the @#$% does St.Louis "mooch" off a guy he blows away in scoring. :laughing:

[wildboy26]

Nash is probably out 4-6 weeks with the injury. Sadly I think that is curtains for him as far as the Olympic team. I feel sorry for him since if he had been healthy all year, he would have been a slam dunk for the team, and if he hadnt had the second straight injury he would still have a good chance, it seems unfair to have a long injury, and get injured again almost right away.
:(

[Newfie John]

I can't think of any two 'elite' goalies who are struggling more than these two, especially Belfour. I'd take Theo over Eddie in a fart.

I agree completely.

[Madferret]

I agree completely.

You back John boy? CPU fixed?

[Newfie John]

You back John boy? CPU fixed?

Fixed? I guess you could say that, wiped clean would be a better word. :laughing:

I've had the CPU back now for a few days but I haven't been that active because I've been busy with basketball lately.

[J.R.]

I've been busy with basketball lately.Basketball on The Rock, eh? Ever heard of Ronnie Sweeney? I believe he's formerly of Mount Pearl.

[Newfie John]

Basketball on The Rock, eh? Ever heard of Ronnie Sweeney? I believe he's formerly of Mount Pearl.



Sorry nope, haven't heard of him. How old is he?

go to www.hooplife.ca and go into the Newfoundland part and you may find something on him.

edit- my username is snitzky at that place. i dont think posting this link is considered spam is it?

[TimmyTabasco]

Sorry nope, haven't heard of him. How old is he?



Maybe he is from Shea Heights? :rollover:

[Madferret]

Who gets call for Canada?
By Alan Adams
Sportsnet.ca

TORONTO -- Like everyone else in the NHL, Wayne Gretzky has watched the breakout seasons both Jason Spezza of the Ottawa Senators and Eric Staal of the Carolina Hurricanes is having.

And as much as the two young players deserve to be on list of 81 under scrutiny for Canada's Olympic team, they will probably be out of luck because there's just not the room on the roster for them.

Staal and Spezza are centres and Canada isn't lacking down the middle.

"They are playing exceptionally well," Gretzky said in an interview. "I always say to people when people are suggesting that a certain player be on the team ... and Spezza and Staal are great examples because they both deserve all the attention and accolades they are getting ... but I always say it is one thing to put a name on the list but you have to realize I only have four centremen and who do you want to remove from there? (Joe) Sakic, (Joe) Thornton and (Vincent) Lecavalier, Mario (Lemieux) ... where do you go from there??

Does this sound familiar?

Think back to the selection process of the 2002 team and how Thornton was ripping up the NHL but wasn't invited to the 2002 Games in Salt Lake City.

Gretzky knows the selection process is controversial because there will always be at least three of four players that people feel should be part of the group and as many who people feel should not be part.

"And they (the ones who people feel should be on the list) probably could be with somebody else and they probably should be with what they have accomplished. But what I learned in '02 was to really believe in our gut feel of what we felt each guy would bring to the table," says Team Canada's Executive Director. "And one of the things we went with and stressed was that we're trying to take the best players available. The thing we learned about '02 and what we learned in the World Cup was that the best players will play team defence. Defensively we can be strong. You need to capitalize offensively and that is where the talented players come into play. That was the one thing we leaned about '02 that we won't probably stray from."

Canada's depth pool has deepened since Gretzky and company mined Olympic gold in '02, ending a 50-year drought. There are plenty of players in every position, be it left wing, centre, right wing, defence or goalie.

"The one thing about this team that is different than the team in '02 is the strength of this team in '02 was in the middle because we were able to move (Steve) Yzerman or Mario to the wing and they were very capable," says Gretzky.

"This team has guys like, and I do not want to leave any names out because I do not want to get in trouble, but this is an example of guys who were not there in '02 on the wing -- you have (Rick) Nash, (Todd) Bertuzzi, (Shayne) Doan, (Dany) Heatley, (Marty) St. Louis and you have (Brad) Richards. There are six wingers who were not there in '02 who definitely deserve a real strong opportunity to be on this team. So you can't just name six centremen and now say we can move one of those guys to the wing. That will not happen."

Team Canada is facing a December 22 deadline to name its roster and the scouting process is in full swing. Gretzky's top lieutenants, Kevin Lowe and Steve Tambellini, were in Toronto over the weekend along with Hockey Canada's Marc Habscheid watching the game between the Tampa Bay Lightning and the Maple Leafs.

Part of picking the final roster is deciding how to divide up the 20 skaters between forwards and defencemen.

"This time we will probably have (four centres), four left wingers and four right wingers and probably carry an extra forward. We will probably go with 13 (forwards) and 7 (defence). That is still debatable," says Gretzky. "The coaching staff may want to go with 12 and 8 where that eighth guy can move up to the wing. But as we talked about the other day on the conference call is it is a different situation in February where the players are in far better shape than they are in September.

"So I do not know if we have to be as concerned about injuries in September. My gut feeling tells me we are probably leaning more toward 13 and 7."

And Canadians can't wait to hear who will wear Canada's colors at the 2006 Games in Turin, Italy.

I'm glad to see the TO / Leaf media is off the 'Bryan McCabe - Canada Olympian?' nonsense.

[Yoata]

I'm glad to see the TO / Leaf media is off the 'Bryan McCabe - Canada Olympian?' nonsense.


WTF is with Lecavalier???

Richards should DEFINITELY be there before him, and probably others as well.

Does Gretzky not know that Richards is a center???

Also, why could Lemieux move to the wing before but not this time??? And why not others???

:conspire:

[Newfie John]

Maybe he is from Shea Heights? :rollover:

or Airport heights... lol

[Max Power]

I agree Lecavalier should be on the bubble. No way should he already have a spot on the team. I don?t know what the deal is with Team Canada?s management and their obsession with Tampa players

[wildboy26]

When was that interview by Grezxty. Hopefully it is a sign Nash can still has a good chance to make the team even after his latest injury? I agree LeCavier should not be a lock, especialy over Spezza or Staal though. LeCavier is a very good player, but overrated and overpayed relative to his abilties.

[Max Power]

With both TSN and Sportsnet having their top story being mighty McCabe. His 3 points helping TO beat the invincible Washington Capitals and how Gretzky can surely not overlook him now for Italy you wonder where his Norris votes come from =]
With all the media pressure that comes after a TO win I?d be shocked if McCabe doesn?t get an invite. He might just get invited to sit as the 7th or 8th man but the outcry of the TO media if he doesn?t would surely turn me off of watching any sports news for a month

[Madferret]

With both TSN and Sportsnet having their top story being mighty McCabe. His 3 points helping TO beat the invincible Washington Capitals and how Gretzky can surely not overlook him now for Italy you wonder where his Norris votes come from =]
With all the media pressure that comes after a TO win I?d be shocked if McCabe doesn?t get an invite. He might just get invited to sit as the 7th or 8th man but the outcry of the TO media if he doesn?t would surely turn me off of watching any sports news for a month

It's the T.O media, what else is new?
The funny thing is the past 5 or so games he's played mediocre at best and they shut up about it. Then, a couple of PP pts against one of the worst teams in the NHL and it all starts up again.
If it wasn't for Washington & Atlanta, McCabe would have a mere 12 points.
Bottom feeder..

[KB in Kelowna]

It's the T.O media, what else is new?
The funny thing is the past 5 or so games he's played mediocre at best and they shut up about it. Then, a couple of PP pts against one of the worst teams in the NHL and it all starts up again.
If it wasn't for Washington & Atlanta, McCabe would have a mere 12 points.
Bottom feeder..

Ah come on Bob Cole needs to have at least one player he recognizes out there when he is calling the game.;) :laughing:

To be fair, there are those who say Jovanowski has a place locked up, I think he is questionable given his defensive lapses in his own end in Cancuk games this year. But as Yoata has pointed out as a power forward he is better than Bertuzzi so far.

[Yoata]

But as Yoata has pointed out as a power forward he is better than Floatuzzi so far.

Fixed. :D

[wildboy26]

When does the final training cup start?

[Max Power]

When does the final training cup start?

lol
What's the question?
The final selection is in 6 weeks I think and the Olympic break starts on the 12th of February

[wildboy26]

I certainly dont think Sidney Crosby deserves to be on the team. The following forwards all deserve a spot more than him at this point: Iginla, Sakic, Lemieux, Thorton, Gagne, LeCavier, Richards, St. Louis, Nash, Heatley,
Spezza, Staal, Maltby, Morrow, Murray, Smyth, Marleau.

[charlio lemieux]

Heatley- Spezza - Iginla
Gagne - Thornton - Murray
Shanahan - Lecavalier- St. Louis
Tanguay- Sakic - Richards

Pronger - Blake
McCabe-Redden
Stuart- Neidermayer

I think we should be allowed to send a second team as well.

Crosby- Lemieux - Bertuzzi
Kariya - Staal - Recchi
Smyth -Savard-Sullivan
Lindros-Marleau-Oneill

Jovanovski-Foote
Aucoin-Phaneuf
Brewer-Morris

[Madferret]

McKenzie: Forward thinking for Canada
TSN.ca Staff

With each passing night of the NHL season, it is becoming more difficult not to imagine Eric Staal, Sidney Crosby or Jason Spezza playing their way onto the Canadian Olympic team. Take Tuesday night, for example.

Staal and Spezza each picked up a goal and an assist for 33 points on the season, tying them with Dany Heatley for tops amongst Canadian scorers. Sidney Crosby, meanwhile, came up with his own version of one and one, giving him nine goals in his last 10 games and 27 points overall, eighth amongst all Canadians, just two fewer than Joe Thornton and one more than Vincent Lecavalier.

You could make a case that as good as the kids' numbers have been, their play has been even more gaudy and they're showing no signs of letting up.

And yet the reality is they are in tough, if any of them are in at all, as far as the Olympics go.

In Wayne Gretzky's world, experience counts for a lot. His favourite question when evaluating players is 'what has he won?' If a player has won Olympic gold in Salt Lake and/or World Cup gold last year for Gretzky, that counts for a lot.

That counts for an awful lot. So here's what we know.

Simon Gagne, Joe Sakic and Jarome Iginla are locks. So are Brad Richards, Lecavalier and Heatley. Odds are the same can be said of Ryan Smyth, Kris Draper and Martin St-Louis, and for that matter, Shane Doan, Joe Thornton and, if healthy, Rick Nash.

Thornton probably deserved to be on the 1998 Olympic team but was on the wrong side of the experience ledger. Now that he's bided his time, he's on the right side.

If Nash's injury prevents him from being named, it seems Gretzky is determined to have Todd Bertuzzi on the team. Slice it however you like, the first 12 forward positions appear to be spoken for and we haven't even mentioned Mario Lemieux or Steve Yzerman, who because of their stature in this game, especially with Gretzky, get to call their own shot. They're on the team unless they say otherwise.

If Lemieux and Yzerman do speak up and bow out gracefully, perhaps one of Staal, Spezza or Crosby gets the call.Perhaps.

For TSN.ca, I'm Bob McKenzie.

Yzerman, Bertuzzi & Nash should be left home IMO.

[charlio lemieux]

Don't forget Draper, and possibly Doan.

[Max Power]

Yah I listened to McKenzie on this last night. He thinks Greztky and co will invite pretty much the same crew as last gold and world cup but including Bert. I think this is a huge mistake by them and IMO will hand us definitely less then gold. Players like Sakic, Yzerman and Bert shouldn?t even be considered if Lemieux is still the captain of choice. Nash, Doan and St Louis should all be on the bubble

[slapshot™]

I'm glad to see the TO / Leaf media is off the 'Bryan McCabe - Canada Olympian?' nonsense.

You do realize that having a Leaf player in a Team Canada sweater goes against 5.6.1.2.2 of the IOC Anti-doping rules.

[charlio lemieux]

You do realize that having a Leaf player in a Team Canada sweater goes against 5.6.1.2.2 of the IOC Anti-doping rules.

Who was the last Leaf to wear the Maple Leaf?

[Madferret]

Who was the last Leaf to wear the Maple Leaf?

Cujo
But I think he went by the name 'Swiss Cheese' in SLC..

[slapshot™]

Cujo
But I think he went by the name 'Swiss Cheese' in SLC..

*LOL*

[Yoata]

Yep taintedmedaljo was Sweden's bitch in game 1, sat in the bleachers most of the rest of the way, but muttjo probably still wears his "gold" "proudly".

[KB in Kelowna]

Yep taintedmedaljo was Sweden's bitch in game 1, sat in the bleachers most of the rest of the way, but muttjo probably still wears his "gold" "proudly".

Actually he was the goalie on the bench and Belfore was dressed in civiesin the press box for that tourny.