View Full Version : McCabe Discussion(Moved Into Leafs thread)
Newfie John
8-07-05, 6:42 PM
and McCabe's contract is outright ridiculous.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
What are you talking about? It isn't nearly that bad. Look at all of the good defencemen who have signed this summer, they're all around 4 million to 4.5 million. Mccabe is at 3.5 million. Find me another top 2 defencemen for less then 3.5 mil who signed this summer. There aren't many, if any.
The Leafs shopping Kaberle would be an absolutely huge mistake IMO. Ever since his sophomore season he's been a 40+ point defenseman, excluding this recent blip in the radar. He definatly took a step back last year, getting only 31 points but redeemed himself greatly by going back to his home in the Czech Republic during the lockout and ending up as league MVP. Look for him to build off of that success. With the red-line being taken out Kaberle is the type of guy who could really see his value sky-rocket. He's got tremendous offensive instincts and his good mobility won't see him vitctimised too often when the opposion team decides to throw a long-bomb (although he's got to get better at knowing when to pinch in). At 27 he can still improve a bit too. I expect he will, though exponential strides are out of the question at his stage of development. If the Leafs don't want him they should send him up the 401. Ottawa can find a place for him. By far the most value of all T.O. blueliners as far as I'm concerned. At 2.28M he's not bad for cap space either. Certainly not for what he brings to the table.
Ken who? Oh, Ken Klee? You must mean Mr. Obstruction. Good defensively my foot. All that meant for him was grabbing hold of oncoming forwards and not letting them move. What a game-plan! The talent that game requires is mind-boggling! His slow speed and clutching and grabbing style of play will translate to a tough go in the NHL. And he's never been good offensively, in spite of his recent career-year when he scored a whole 8 goals. Alas, his value has never been higher. Trade him for the highest return out there (assuming there are some legit offers floating around).
McCabe is fine but no #1 defenseman as some of the Norris voters would have had you believe last year. I guess they just got caught up in his career-year statisitcs ($10 says he never reaches those totals again, even if the game does open up). And some of his poor descisions still have me scratching my head. A slightly below average #2 IMO. That flying hip-check of his is charging when he lands it and he often doesn't, leaving him way out of position). Just because he turns at the last minute shouldn't make it legal. Although the NHL refs seem to have a different opinion. Anyway, for all his faults he's still very servicable and has a mean streak to boot. With the going rate for defenseman of his calibre being 4M - 4.5M this off-season his contract certainly isn't bad. But with Chara/Redden both making 3.725M respectively, Chara signing right around the same time as Bryan, it can't be considered a good contract either.
2 things.
John, McCabe was an RFA. There was no open market for his value, so yes, he IS overpaid. You can't compare UFA signings to RFA signings, because there's no bidding wars going on.
Secondly, Andy, how come Hemsky's amazing year in the Czech league (capitalized by being playoff MVP, no less) aren't worth mention, but Kaberle's season in the same league is?
Leafs_Fa_Life
8-07-05, 7:39 PM
I agree with you on Kaberle. He's the one guy you can't justify trading right now. I think in the "new NHL" Kaberle will easily be our best dman next year, and I'd expect McCabe's value to drop since he's not exactly the most mobile guy in the world. But like you said, still a servicable 2nd or 3rd dman. If Washington wants Klee back they can have him IMO. He'll be a pylon with the new rules.
Leafs_Fa_Life
8-07-05, 7:43 PM
John, McCabe was an RFA. There was no open market for his value, so yes, he IS overpaid. You can't compare UFA signings to RFA signings, because there's no bidding wars going on.
Like I mentioned in the Leafs forum, McCabe could've taken the Leafs to arbitration and gotten more than the money he's pulling in now. Remember, it's not hockey people who conduct the arbitration hearings, the guy will just see McCabe had a big year statistically with a 4th place finish in the Norris voting and would've awarded him a bigger deal than the 3.5M he's making now.
Secondly, Andy, how come Hemsky's amazing year in the Czech league (capitalized by being playoff MVP, no less) aren't worth mention, but Kaberle's season in the same league is?
Because we weren't just talking about Hemsky as an individual like in Kaberle's case. Infact, I full expect to see Hemsky to also come back to NA and put up some improved statisitcs thanks to some skills, experience, and most importantly the confidence he gained abroad (er.... not really, since he is Czech). And FTR, Kaberle was quite a bit more impressive than Hemsky (offensively) this season putting more more points and PPG despite being a defenseman.
It's just that his European successes aren't enough to make a case for him being about equal to Havlat. Not when Havlat has already put up a PPG at the NHL level at age 23 - far better than Hemseky's impressive Euro statistics. Are they enough to make a case for him to see an increase in production? Absolutely.
Like I mentioned in the Leafs forum, McCabe could've taken the Leafs to arbitration and gotten more than the money he's pulling in now. Remember, it's not hockey people who conduct the arbitration hearings, the guy will just see McCabe had a big year statistically with a 4th place finish in the Norris voting and would've awarded him a bigger deal than the 3.5M he's making now.
The Leafs would've been smart to deal him in the summer of 04, actually. His "value" will never be higher than it was at that time (even with his series against the Flyers). Sell high and buy low, it's a whole new world.
I really don't like arbitration, and I thnik some new stats desperately need to be added to the NHL to help eas it up. Strength of opposition and turnovers both come to mind.
I really don't like arbitration, and I thnik some new stats desperately need to be added to the NHL to help eas it up. Strength of opposition and turnovers both come to mind.
Why the NHL ever stopped keeping track of giveaways is beyond me.....
Because we weren't just talking about Hemsky as an individual like in Kaberle's case. Infact, I full expect to see Hemsky to also come back to NA and put up some improved statisitcs thanks to some skills, experience, and most importantly the confidence he gained abroad (er.... not really, since he is Czech). And FTR, Kaberle was quite a bit more impressive than Hemsky (offensively) this season putting more more points and PPG despite being a defenseman.
It's just that his European successes aren't enough to make a case for him being about equal to Havlat. Not when Havlat has already put up a PPG at the NHL level at age 23 - far better than Hemseky's impressive Euro statistics. Are they enough to make a case for him to see an increase in production? Absolutely.
Very fair and balanced response there Andy.
To get a bit back on topic (Because I just realized I may have dragged another topic way off.. whoops :doh: ) *IF* Kabele is being shopped, would the Oilers be one of the teams interested? The guy would definetly help the PP out, and would really solidify out D corps.
Having said that, I believe the Oilers and Leafs are bad trading partners, as the only two players in Toronto (don't forget to take salary into consideration, please) who would be useful in Edmonton are Kaberle and Tucker. I'm assuming O'neil has a no-trade clause.
Why the NHL ever stopped keeping track of giveaways is beyond me.....
Because Gretzky led the league in it every year ;)
Leafs_Fa_Life
8-07-05, 7:54 PM
The Leafs would've been smart to deal him in the summer of 04, actually. His "value" will never be higher than it was at that time (even with his series against the Flyers). Sell high and buy low, it's a whole new world.
The organization has no depth on defense though. I doubt McCabe would've fetched an NHL calibre defensemen in return. The return might've been prospects, picks, or just some other teams trash (around the league he's probably not viewed as highly as us in Toronto think he is), and in the process another hole would be created on our sh*tty defense. I'd rather have McCabe at the contract he's signed to now for just one more year than any of the guys who recently signed long term deals (aside from Pronger).
The organization has no depth on defense though. I doubt McCabe would've fetched an NHL calibre defensemen in return. The return might've been prospects, picks, or just some other teams trash (around the league he's probably not viewed as highly as us in Toronto think he is), and in the process another hole would be created on our sh*tty defense. I'd rather have McCabe at the contract he's signed to now for just one more year than any of the guys who recently signed long term deals (aside from Pronger).
Say you could of got half of what was obtained for Pronger.. do you do it?
Example:
To Florida : McCabe
To Toronto: Mike Van Ryn, 2nd round draft pick
The only way Toronto can build some (much needed) depth now is to trade a few stars for 2-3 players who have the potential to be good.
Newfie John
8-07-05, 7:57 PM
The Leafs shopping Kaberle would be an absolutely huge mistake IMO. Ever since his sophomore season he's been a 40+ point defenseman, excluding this recent blip in the radar. He definatly took a step back last year, getting only 31 points but redeemed himself greatly by going back to his home in the Czech Republic during the lockout and ending up as league MVP. Look for him to build off of that success. With the red-line being taken out Kaberle is the type of guy who could really see his value sky-rocket. He's got tremendous offensive instincts and his good mobility won't see him vitctimised too often when the opposion team decides to throw a long-bomb (although he's got to get better at knowing when to pinch in). At 27 he can still improve a bit too. I expect he will, though exponential strides are out of the question at his stage of development. If the Leafs don't want him they should send him up the 401. Ottawa can find a place for him. By far the most value of all T.O. blueliners as far as I'm concerned. At 2.28M he's not bad for cap space either. Certainly not for what he brings to the table.
I agree, if we trade him, I think we'll get an excellent return. I doubt he'll be traded anyway, doesn't make sense.
Ken who? Oh, Ken Klee? You must mean Mr. Obstruction. Good defensively my foot. All that meant for him was grabbing hold of oncoming forwards and not letting them move. What a game-plan! The talent that game requires is mind-boggling! His slow speed and clutching and grabbing style of play will translate to a tough go in the NHL. And he's never been good offensively, in spite of his recent career-year when he scored a whole 8 goals. Alas, his value has never been higher. Trade him for the highest return out there (assuming there are some legit offers floating around).
Klee only had 4 goals didn't he? He did however have 29 points(IIRC) which isn't bad for a defensive minded defencemen. This is the first time I've heard anyone complain about Klee and obstruction. I think that is totally off-base. Most of the obstruction has come from lazy forwards who didn't back check enough. The defencemen aren't as much the problem as the forwards are. Klee had somewhere between 35-40 penalty minutes last year, so if he was obstructing so much the refs must have been blind.
McCabe is fine but no #1 defenseman as some of the Norris voters would have had you believe last year. I guess they just got caught up in his career-year statisitcs ($10 says he never reaches those totals again, even if the game does open up).
I'll take that bet. With the new rules his offensive game should become even better. He is still somewhat young also.
And some of his poor descisions still have me scratching my head. A slightly below average #2 IMO.
Below average #2? Now come on you've gotta be joking me Andrew. On most teams in the NHL, Mccabe would be a number one defencemen.
Lets take a look at some teams here and see where he'd be at least a #1.
Atlanta
Boston
Anaheim
Buffalo
Carolina
Chicago(before they acquired Aucoin)
Columbus(before Foote, even though its close)
Edmonton(before Pronger)
LA
Montreal(Souray was a flash in the pan)
Nashville
NYI
NYR
Philly(debatable, but I'd take Caber over everyone on that defence)
Phoenix
Pitsburgh(once again debatable. I put him over Gonchar because their offensive games are similar, though Gonchar has a pretty big edge, but Mccabe is better in the defensive and physical categories)
Vancouver
Washington.
and of course, Toronto.
Thats 19 teams where Mccabe would be the #1 D man, IMO. Thats more then half. So give credit where credit is due. He's a #1 defencemen. Any guy who finishes 4th in Norris voting isn't a "below average #2 defencemen".
With the going rate for defenseman of his calibre being 4M - 4.5M this off-season his contract certainly isn't bad. But with Chara/Redden both making 3.725M respectively, Chara signing right around the same time as Bryan, it can't be considered a good contract either.
Mccabe would have gotten it in arbitration anyway, so we had no choice.
Now to PDO.
John, McCabe was an RFA. There was no open market for his value, so yes, he IS overpaid. You can't compare UFA signings to RFA signings, because there's no bidding wars going on
You're right, but he was eligable for arbitration. He quite possibly could have nabbed 4 to 4.5 million there. Mccabe's contract is fair.
McCabe wouldn't play before Smith, and he'd be on par with Staios. On a MacT team it's quite possible he'd be 4th on the depth chart, he simply won't feed tough minutes to the guys who make mistakes. Who would you rather on your team, Horcoff or Hemsky? Because, Horcoff eats up minutes that Ales has never seen. Same could be said for Staios and McCabe. Sure, McCabe would get a lot of PP time, but my guess is he'd play some very sheltered minutes 5x5 until he worked the cramps out of his game, which are very obvious.
Newfie John
8-07-05, 8:01 PM
Say you could of got half of what was obtained for Pronger.. do you do it?
Example:
To Florida : McCabe
To Toronto: Mike Van Ryn, 2nd round draft pick
The only way Toronto can build some (much needed) depth now is to trade a few stars for 2-3 players who have the potential to be good.
I wouldn't do that trade.
I wouldn't do that trade.
How much would Florida have to add, just out of curiosity? I haven't seen Mike Van Ryn much, but from what I've seen he's fairly physical, solid defensively (played some of the toughest minutes on Florida to boot) and had some good offensive output. He's also 4 years younger than "Caber".
Newfie John
8-07-05, 8:09 PM
McCabe wouldn't play before Smith, and he'd be on par with Staios. On a MacT team it's quite possible he'd be 4th on the depth chart, he simply won't feed tough minutes to the guys who make mistakes. Who would you rather on your team, Horcoff or Hemsky? Because, Horcoff eats up minutes that Ales has never seen. Same could be said for Staios and McCabe. Sure, McCabe would get a lot of PP time, but my guess is he'd play some very sheltered minutes 5x5 until he worked the cramps out of his game, which are very obvious.
Once again, Mccabe doesn't make that many mistakes. Last year's playoffs were a bad showing for him, but during the season he was pretty responsible except for when he'd go for the big hit. Mccabe definately has more skill then Jason Smith and is a better player, he may not be in front of him simply because of what Smith means to the team. He is their leader.
On par with Staios? That's laughable. He had what, 28 points last year? That was his career high by the way. He had a whopping 6 goals. 6'1-200 32 yrs
Mccabe is bigger, and Mccabe is younger then Staios. Mccabe puts out WAY more of an offensive game then Staios and they are both physical. Last season Mccabe had 16 goals, 10 more then Staios. Staios was a +17, Mccabe was a +22. They were even in penalty minutes.
To say Mccabe is on par with Staios is just laughable and completely ridiculous.
Leafs_Fa_Life
8-07-05, 8:12 PM
How much would Florida have to add, just out of curiosity? I haven't seen Mike Van Ryn much, but from what I've seen he's fairly physical, solid defensively (played some of the toughest minutes on Florida to boot) and had some good offensive output. He's also 4 years younger than "Caber".
I probably would take that deal. We'd have Van Ryn for a longer period of time, and at a reasonable contract. He won't blow anybody away with his ability, but he's a solid top 4 for sure. Also, with Carlo this year and possibily White next year we can afford to lose an offensive minded dman for somebody who's better in their own zone.
Newfie John
8-07-05, 8:17 PM
How much would Florida have to add, just out of curiosity? I haven't seen Mike Van Ryn much, but from what I've seen he's fairly physical, solid defensively (played some of the toughest minutes on Florida to boot) and had some good offensive output. He's also 4 years younger than "Caber".
I think he lacks physicality when compared to Mccabe. His offensive numbers are good and they probably will get better. I like Van Ryn too, he's only 26 so we could have him for a few more years. I wouldn't want too much more in the deal. If the 2nd rounder could be moved up to a first, because I truely think he has that value right now. If no first, I'd want the second but with a prospect or a later pick added.
Klee only had 4 goals didn't he? He did however have 29 points(IIRC) which isn't bad for a defensive minded defencemen. This is the first time I've heard anyone complain about Klee and obstruction. I think that is totally off-base. Most of the obstruction has come from lazy forwards who didn't back check enough. The defencemen aren't as much the problem as the forwards are. Klee had somewhere between 35-40 penalty minutes last year, so if he was obstructing so much the refs must have been blind.
Lol, 4 goals. You are correct my friend. Wow. Seems to me he just benefited from dishing the puck to a good forward on the PP then. 14 of his 25 assists (http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/stats?service=direct&context=Stats/changeSortColumnAction&fetchKey=20042TORAAS&sort=powerPlayAssists&viewName=ppScoring) came with the man advantage afterall. And since Klee has never been known for his great first pass I doubt it was thanks to some tape-to-tape feeds but rather thanks to some strokes of individual brilliance from people like Sundin. Just like McCabe I doubt Klee ever reaches his statistics from last season.
I guess we'll just have to wait see with our friendly wager. At 30 McCabe is right in his prime so although not out of the question I'm confident in my claims.
Below average #2? Now come on you've gotta be joking me Andrew. On most teams in the NHL, Mccabe would be a number one defencemen.
Lets take a look at some teams here and see where he'd be at least a #1.
<list of teams>
Thats 19 teams where Mccabe would be the #1 D man, IMO. Thats more then half. So give credit where credit is due. He's a #1 defencemen. Any guy who finishes 4th in Norris voting isn't a "below average #2 defencemen".
Is McCabe a top 30 guy in the league? Not IMO, and thus not a #1 defenseman. It doesn't matter if he'd be a #1 on X amount of teams because some teams have two #1's while others have none (Carolina).
Voting done by the media often isn't credible. The Ottawa media for example would have you believe Jacques Martin was a horrible coach after our playoff loss to Toronto. And seeing as many of those voters were likely Toronto based, there's little wonder McCabe recieved so many votes. I mean, most of them probably just looked at the point totals and jotted his name down on a piece of paper.
I consider Wade Redden a good, on some nights a very good, #2 defender. I consider McCabe a slightly below average #2 defenseman. Everyone's definition is different, not to mention such a sunject is qutie subjective, but I think that's a good example of my rating scale. If Redden is only a good #2 in my mind, logically wouldn't McCabe fall as a bit below par? Maybe I'm too tough critic.
Staios is a slightly worth Smith clone.
Like I said, McCabe would get the PP time, but 5x5? It's about out-scoring, and Staios is great at that, one of the most under-rated in the league easily.
Newfie John
8-07-05, 8:30 PM
Is McCabe a top 30 guy in the league? Not IMO, and thus not a #1 defenseman. It doesn't matter if he'd be a #1 on X amount of teams because some teams have two #1's while others have none (Carolina).
He's definately a top 30 guy. Could you list 30 defencemen who you think are better then Mccabe? Since you think he's an "under average" number 2, could you list 60 defencemen that are bettter then Mccabe? After you'll do this you'll see why I think your claim is rediculous.
Voting done by the media often isn't credible. The Ottawa media for example would have you believe Jacques Martin was a horrible coach after our playoff loss to Toronto. And seeing as many of those voters were likely Toronto based, there's little wonder McCabe recieved so many votes. I mean, most of them probably just looked at the point totals and jotted his name down on a piece of paper.
If it is so media based, then that makes Mccabe's chances WORSE! The Toronto media are the biggest leaf haters at all, take a look at the Sun(Steve Simmons, Mike Ulmer) or The Star(Damien Cox) and you'll know what I mean. What you're saying here has no basis really.
I consider Wade Redden a good, on some nights a very good, #2 defender. I consider McCabe a slightly below average #2 defenseman. Everyone's definition is different, not to mention such a sunject is qutie subjective, but I think that's a good example of my rating scale. If Redden is only a good #2 in my mind, logically wouldn't McCabe fall as a bit below par? Maybe I'm too tough critic.
Once again, if he's a below average number 2, find me 60 defencemen who are better.
Let's play the "list every NHL'er in the league who on a playoff run you'd play more than McCabe" game, shall we?
#1. Lidstrom
#2. Pronger
#3. Niedermayer
#4. Chara
#5. Blake
#6. Foote
#7. Aucoin
#8. Ohlund
#9. Zubov
#10. Redden
#11. Hamrlik
#12. Hannan
#13. Bouwmeester
#14. Pitkanen
#15. Visnovsky
#16. Niinimaa
#17. Dempsey
#18. Jonsson
#19. Boynton
#20. Boyle
#21. Rafalski
#22. B. Jackman
#23. Lydman
#24. Stuart
#25. Leopold
#26. Smith
#27. Jovanovski
#28. Norstrom
#29. Modry
#30. Redden
There's 30, I'll stop there and point out I haven't mentioned Gonchar, Leopold, Regehr (Mr. Over-rated himself!), Stevens, Leetch, Brewer, etc.
There's easily 45, hence why he's a "below average #2" or a #3. I'm sure there's some you'll disagree with, whether due to believing the idiots in the booth (see: Lydman) or due to simply not seeing the play enough (most of the LA Kings I named, for example)... however I also didn't mention several studs.
The Insider
8-07-05, 8:37 PM
McCabe is not a #1 defenceman, despite the 2nd team all star votes, the Norris votes and his points from the last season, McCabe has the luxury of being backed up by a great goaltender and his mistakes were usually harmless other than the Flyer game. When you think of #1 defenceman, you think of Pronger, Foote, Niedermayer, Blake, guys who are horses on defence and are smart both offensively + defensively, McCabe is a decent offensive defenceman, maybe even great, but defensively he is average at best. He is not at the level of any of the above and wouldn't cut it as a #1 on a championship caliber team. I think McCabe would be very good playing in the second defensive pairing with a more advanced defensive defenseman, but beyond that he is by far not in the same league as the others. We all saw what happened to him in Sweden, he was terrible defensively and was forced off the team. And I will have to agree that the 3.5 million is too much for him, especially considering for an extra million we could've had Foote.
The Insider
8-07-05, 8:42 PM
#1. Lidstrom
#2. Pronger
#3. Niedermayer
#4. Chara
#5. Blake
#6. Foote
#7. Aucoin
#8. Ohlund
#9. Zubov
#10. Redden
#11. Hamrlik
#12. Hannan
#13. Bouwmeester
#14. Pitkanen
#15. Visnovsky
#16. Niinimaa
#17. Dempsey
#18. Jonsson
#19. Boynton
#20. Boyle
#21. Rafalski
#22. B. Jackman
#23. Lydman
#24. Stuart
#25. Leopold
#26. Smith
#27. Jovanovski
#28. Norstrom
#29. Modry
#30. Redden
They cloning guys in Ottawa now? :thumb:
They cloning guys in Ottawa now? :thumb:
Yes.. it's the newest rage.
Before you know it there'll be 2 Reddens and 4 Chara's in Ottawa! :thumb:
They cloning guys in Ottawa now? :thumb: Yep. They just can't get enough of the great Lloydminster native. :D
The Insider
8-07-05, 8:55 PM
Yes.. it's the newest rage.
Before you know it there'll be 2 Reddens and 4 Chara's in Ottawa! :thumb:
Good, so next year there will be one of each that the Leafs can sign and they can fulfill their lifelong dream of playing for the Leafs :thumb:
Newfie John
8-07-05, 8:55 PM
Let's play the "list every NHL'er in the league who on a playoff run you'd play for McCabe" game, shall we?
#1. Lidstrom
#2. Pronger
#3. Niedermayer
#4. Chara
#5. Blake
#6. Foote
#7. Aucoin
#8. Ohlund
#9. Zubov
#10. Redden
#11. Hamrlik
#12. Hannan
#13. Bouwmeester
#14. Pitkanen
#15. Visnovsky
#16. Niinimaa
#17. Dempsey
#18. Jonsson
#19. Boynton
#20. Boyle
#21. Rafalski
#22. B. Jackman
#23. Lydman
#24. Stuart
#25. Leopold
#26. Smith
#27. Jovanovski
#28. Norstrom
#29. Modry
#30. Redden
There's 30, I'll stop there and point out I haven't mentioend Gonchar, Leopold, Regehr (Mr. Over-rated himself!), Stevens, Leetch, etc.
There's easily 45, hence why he's a "below average #2" or a #3.
The ones in bold is who I disagree with you with. There are others that I disagree with also, but they are close ones. Also, you have Wade Redden in there twice.
So here we go.
1. Mattias Ohlund- Offensively he isn't bad, but Mccabe takes him in this category, CLEARLY. Mccabe also takes him in the physicality category. Ohlund wins the defensive. Mccabe is better then Mattias Ohlund.
2. Sergei Zubov- Better than Ohlund offensively, but still isn't as good as Mccabe offensively. Mccabe takes this category. Zubov is as soft as a pillow, so physicality once again, Mccabe wins. Zubov, despite his softness, is responsible defensively, but so is Mccabe, but he is too inconsistant, so the edge goes to Zubov defensively. Mccabe is better then Sergei Zubov.
3. Jay Bouwmeester- Bouwmeester will be better then Mccabe one day, but not yet.
4. Joni Pitkanen - He may be better then Mccabe one day, but not yet. It is clear that today Mccabe is the better player.
5. Lubomir Visnovsky- You've got to be joking. Last season this guy had 29 points, thats not too bad, but Mccabe blows this guy out of the water offensively. Visnovsky at 5'10 is NOT physical AT ALL. Mccabe takes the edge there. Defensively I give Mccabe the edge also, because Visnovsky is the one of the easiest defencemen in the league to knock over.
6. Nathan Dempsey- This is just funny. Now I love Dempsey, really do. He was the captain of my beloved St. John's Maple Leafs for many years, but he just isn't in the same stratosphere as Mccabe in the NHL. Mccabe has the edge in all categories. I've seen Dempsey a lot, I'm willing to bet more then you have, I'm even bias for Dempsey, but this just isn't close.
7. Kenny Jonsson- Mccabe takes him in all categories except for defensive abilities, where I say they're even.
8. Brian Rafalski- Rafalski is a #2 defencemen at best. Offensively Mccabe has the edge, but Rafalski does carry the puck better. With Physicality Mccabe has the edge, and defensively I say the're roughly even. As far as position goes, Rafalski has the edge, but along the boards, Mccabe has the edge so I say they're pretty much even defensively. Overall Mccabe is better.
9. Toni Lydman- I love this guy, really do. He was awesome in last years playoffs. But really, this is no contest. Offensively Mccabe blows him out of the water, Lydman isn't physical at all, but Lydman is better defensively then Mccabe.
10. Brad Stuart- Stuart is a very good defencemen, but still isn't as good as Mccabe. In the future, Stuart could turn out to be better. Offensively , Mccabe takes this guy, though this is Stuart's best aspect of his game. Defensively, Stuart makes a lot of mistakes, especially in key situations, which is why he's been put in the coach's doghouse on several occasions. Physically Mccabe is better.
11. Jason Smith- You're bias here, so I can understand where you're coming from. Smith's offensive game doesn't compare to Mccabe's at all. Defensively Smith is better, but Smith does go for the big hit sometimes leaving himself out of position. Physically they're the same. Mccabe's offensive production is such a big gap that it makes Mccabe the better overall player.
12. Ed Jovanovski- Mccabe wins in every category, except defence where they're even.
13. Jaroslav Modry- I wish this guy would use his size, but oh well. Offensively this guy isn't bad, but Mccabe is without doubt better in this category. It isn't even close in the physicality department, but Modry is slightly better defensively. Overall, Mccabe is better when you take all things into account.
So there's 13 players that clearly aren't as good as Mccabe right now.
Newfie John
8-07-05, 8:58 PM
McCabe is not a #1 defenceman, despite the 2nd team all star votes, the Norris votes and his points from the last season, McCabe has the luxury of being backed up by a great goaltender and his mistakes were usually harmless other than the Flyer game. When you think of #1 defenceman, you think of Pronger, Foote, Niedermayer, Blake, guys who are horses on defence and are smart both offensively + defensively, McCabe is a decent offensive defenceman, maybe even great, but defensively he is average at best. He is not at the level of any of the above and wouldn't cut it as a #1 on a championship caliber team. I think McCabe would be very good playing in the second defensive pairing with a more advanced defensive defenseman, but beyond that he is by far not in the same league as the others. We all saw what happened to him in Sweden, he was terrible defensively and was forced off the team. And I will have to agree that the 3.5 million is too much for him, especially considering for an extra million we could've had Foote.
Mccabe is a #1 defencemen. There are 30 teams in this league, Mccabe is in the top 30 without doubt. He was on the second All star team last season and was fourth in Norris voting. It's common sense that he's a #1 defencemen. Is he in the same league as Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake etc? No. Those guys are super stars, AND #1 defencmen. Mccabe is not a superstar.
The Insider
8-07-05, 9:03 PM
Mccabe is a #1 defencemen. There are 30 teams in this league, Mccabe is in the top 30 without doubt. He was on the second All star team last season and was fourth in Norris voting. It's common sense that he's a #1 defencemen. Is he in the same league as Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake etc? No. Those guys are super stars, AND #1 defencmen. Mccabe is not a superstar.
He only received that kind of attention because there were a lot of defenseman injured which opened the door for him. If McCabe is a #1 than so is Kaberle cause they are about the same in offensive and defensive aspects. Let's remember McCabe's stupid double cheek hit and the can opener which either puts him in the box or out of position. If McCabe is our #1, we'll never get beyond round 2.
Newfie John
8-07-05, 9:09 PM
He only received that kind of attention because there were a lot of defenseman injured which opened the door for him. If McCabe is a #1 than so is Kaberle cause they are about the same in offensive and defensive aspects. Let's remember McCabe's stupid double cheek hit and the can opener which either puts him in the box or out of position. If McCabe is our #1, we'll never get beyond round 2.
Mccabe is better then Kaberle offensively and defensively, and is more physical, IMO. Along the boards Kaberle is as useful as a used condom. Also, we've already made the 3rd round with Mccabe as our #1 D.
John, I don't think I can name you 60 (I don't need to to support my claims anyway). But I can name you 45. Numbers 30-60 will all be #2 defenseman. Numbers 46 and on will all be considered below the averge. Although you may not agree with my list (I know you won't ;)) that's okay because you don't have to. Once we get past around 40 it gets a bit grey. But there are 30 guys in this league who, IMO, are definitively better than Bryan McCabe. That at least makes him no #1. I agree with all of PDO's choices (although I wouldn't rank them in that order) but Dempsey and he named Redden twice. Not in order, but going from Brian's 28:
29. Gonchar
30. Leopold
31. Stevens
32. Brewer
33. Leetch
34. Berard
35. Zhitnik
36. Ozolinch
37. Timonen
38. Hill
39. MacInnis
40. Chelios
41. Majesky
42. Markov
43. Kasparaitis
44. Vishnevski
45. Sydor
Yes.. it's the newest rage.
Before you know it there'll be 2 Reddens and 4 Chara's in Ottawa! :thumb:
*drools*
Chara - Chara
Chara - Redden
Redden - Chara
Best defense in the history of the NHL! :thumb: ;)
TimmyTabasco
8-07-05, 9:27 PM
Lets take a look at some teams here and see where he'd be at least a #1.
Anaheim
Scott Niedermayer ring a bell? :nod:
Montreal(Souray was a flash in the pan)
I'm not going to even start that arguement again. However, I will say you are wrong :wave:
Vancouver
Say what? When he was here, he wasn't even a No.1. And currently, he wouldn't be a No.1. We have Ohlund, and Jovo..who are both No.1
Sorry Johnny :coffee: :thumb:
TimmyTabasco
8-07-05, 9:33 PM
1. Mattias Ohlund- Offensively he isn't bad, but Mccabe takes him in this category, CLEARLY. Mccabe also takes him in the physicality category. Ohlund wins the defensive. Mccabe is better then Mattias Ohlund.
Thats such crap. Have you seen Ohlund play a lot? Biased aside..he was our best defender last season. The man rarely makes an error. The only reason he isn't known more, is because he is often overshadowed by Jovo.
2. Sergei Zubov- Better than Ohlund offensively, but still isn't as good as Mccabe offensively. Mccabe takes this category. Zubov is as soft as a pillow, so physicality once again, Mccabe wins. Zubov, despite his softness, is responsible defensively, but so is Mccabe, but he is too inconsistant, so the edge goes to Zubov defensively. Mccabe is better then Sergei Zubov.
McCabe is more physical, but Zubov is the better defender. Just check his stats
11. Jason Smith- You're bias here, so I can understand where you're coming from. Smith's offensive game doesn't compare to Mccabe's at all. Defensively Smith is better, but Smith does go for the big hit sometimes leaving himself out of position. Physically they're the same. Mccabe's offensive production is such a big gap that it makes Mccabe the better overall player.
Smith IMO, is a rock..solid on defense. A gritty leader. McCabe is a liability
12. Ed Jovanovski- Mccabe wins in every category, except defence where they're even.
Are you kidding? Jovo is an offensive defenseman, who isn't so good at defense..I guess thats where McCabe and he are at par :nod:
Newfie John
8-07-05, 9:48 PM
.
Thats such crap. Have you seen Ohlund play a lot? Biased aside..he was our best defender last season. The man rarely makes an error. The only reason he isn't known more, is because he is often overshadowed by Jovo.
DEFENDER.. yes. I said he was better DEFENSIVELY. Mccabe takes it in all other categories. Therefore, overall Mccabe is better.
McCabe is more physical, but Zubov is the better defender. Just check his stats
I checked, and I stand by what I said.
Smith IMO, is a rock..solid on defense. A gritty leader. McCabe is a liability
When you take the other things into account, which you seem to ignore, OVERALL, Mccabe is better.
Are you kidding? Jovo is an offensive defenseman, who isn't so good at defense..I guess thats where McCabe and he are at par :nod:
Mccabe is better then Jovo offensively. No doubt. They could be percieved as even defensively. Once again, OVERALL, Mccabe is better.
Newfie John
8-07-05, 9:53 PM
John, I don't think I can name you 60 (I don't need to to support my claims anyway). But I can name you 45. Numbers 30-60 will all be #2 defenseman. Numbers 46 and on will all be considered below the averge. Although you may not agree with my list (I know you won't ;)) that's okay because you don't have to. Once we get past around 40 it gets a bit grey. But there are 30 guys in this league who, IMO, are definitively better than Bryan McCabe. That at least makes him no #1. I agree with all of PDO's choices (although I wouldn't rank them in that order) but Dempsey and he named Redden twice. Not in order, but going from Brian's 28:
29. Gonchar
30. Leopold
31. Stevens
32. Brewer
33. Leetch
34. Berard
35. Zhitnik
36. Ozolinch
37. Timonen
38. Hill
39. MacInnis
40. Chelios
41. Majesky
42. Markov
43. Kasparaitis
44. Vishnevski
45. Sydor
Take a look at where I argued with Brian's list and get back to me. Mccabe is better then those guys. Do you really think that Toni Lydman or Nathan Dempsey are better defencemen then Mccabe? You have to be kidding me because thats complete bullsh!t in all reality.
To your list... I don't even have to explain myself on these.. Macinnis? He used to be. Chelios? He used to be? Markov? Your joking me. Kasparaitis? WHAT? Actually I disagree with almost all of them on that list.
I can't believe you guys actually think guys like Dempsey, KASPARAITIS, BERARD, etc etc etc!!
:rolleyes:
John;
Bryan McCabe is, at best, adequate defensively. Realisictally, he is a liability who has a mean streak and can lay a big hit or two. And most of the time his flying ass check lands him out of position. Although when it works it's great he doesn't land it too often. And the number of times I've seen him lay out a guy with his shoulder can be counted on my fingers. Don't confuse phsyical play for good defensive play. People do it all the time. Ed Jovanovski would be the best example. Most top NHL defenseman > McCabe defensively. And since the league seems to be split between physical and positional blueliners at the top, most top NHL defenseman = McCabe physically.
You also want to say McCabe is so great offensively. But really, he's just above average. Other than last season, which I say with confidence will be his career year, McCabe has been a pretty consistant 20-29 points guy. How is that special? If anything, McCabe is showing signs of being a flash in the pan, not Souray. Guys like Redden who consistantly put up 40+ points, those are the elite offensive defenseman in the league. Until McCabe can piece two good seasons together, and he has yet to do so, I don't see how we can be saying he is among the top 5 offensive defenseman in the league. And based on your comments he seems to rank in your top 5. Most top NHL defenseman >= McCabe offensively
Based on your 3 assesments (offense, defense, physical play):
Top NHL defenseman > McCabe. That statement doesn't support my claims of him being a slightly below average #2 (although I stand by those claimes) but it does discount your theory of him being a legit #1 since a #1 defenseman in a top NHL d-man.
All I can say now is: prove me wrong, Bryan. Prove me wrong. Show me more than just one good year in a row. You've yet to do so and are 10 years into your NHL career. And one could even argue that thanks to his crappy European outing (1 point in 10 games, -12, chased off the roster for poor defensive performances) that even if he gets 53 points again, it can't be considered in back-to-back campaignes. I don't consider the lockout an official season in debates like this since players were not in the NHL, but the case could be made.
I can't believe you guys actually think guys like Dempsey, KASPARAITIS, BERARD, etc etc etc!!
:rolleyes:
Berard is a defensive laibility, alright physically, and pretty good offensively. He should be your type of #1 d-man. :) Anyway, what makes Berard any different than McCabe other than the hip-checks that put the latter out of position? Oh yeah, unlike his couterpart, Berard has posted six 30+ point seasons and three 40+ point seasons compared to McCabe who has posted two of each, both times in the same season. And Berard's PPG this past NHL season (47p, 58 GP) >>>>> McCabe's (53p, 75GP). Berard = .81 while McCabe = .70
MadDevil
8-07-05, 11:21 PM
I should know better than to get sucked into this argument, but what the hell...
How can McCabe be considered a top defenseman in the league when he's only had two 40+ point seasons? He's been up and down the last four years. Last year he had 53 points, the year before 24, the before that he had 43 points, and in the 2000-2001 season, he had 29 points. Other than his two 40+ point seasons, he's never reached the 30 point mark in any year. That's not even that good offensively, much less consistent enough to be a top defenseman, or a #1 defenseman on most teams.
NJ, the one thing I noticed when you put up your list of teams McCabe would be considered a #1 defenseman on, half of the teams on that list have crap for defense as it is, so of course McCabe would be a #1. As for saying McCabe is better than players like Ohlund, or Zubov, that is simply laughable. I would much rather take the all around game of Ohlund, or the consistency of Zubov over a guy who might be able to get me 40 points on the back end, but that's about it. McCabe is a decent #2 or #3 guy on a team with a decent defense, but to say he's a #1 guy on most teams in the league, that's just a stretch IMO.
Bryan McCabe is, at best, adequate defensively. Realisictally, he is a liability who has a mean streak and can lay a big hit or two. And most of the time his flying ass check lands him out of position. Although when it works it's great he doesn't land it too often. And the number of times I've seen him lay out a guy with his shoulder can be counted on my fingers. Don't confuse phsyical play for good defensive play. People do it all the time.
Entire post was great, but this part...
Matt, can we get a clapping emoticon?
Newfie John
8-08-05, 11:48 AM
John;
Bryan McCabe is, at best, adequate defensively. Realisictally, he is a liability who has a mean streak and can lay a big hit or two.
A liability? No he certainly is not. This is getting crazy. Aki Berg is a liability, Jyrki Lumme was a liability, Mccabe a liability? You're just grasping at straws here. Last year in the Philly series, he was a liability. He had a bad game. Ever since that ONE game he's a liability. Give me a break.
And most of the time his flying ass check lands him out of position.
This is true, but how many times does he actually attempt it? Not that many. Once or twice a week maximum, and he hits it half of the time. It hasn't cost the team that much anyway because usually when he tries it, the backchecking forward knows it and the forward goes back to cover up.
Although when it works it's great he doesn't land it too often.
I'd give it around 50% so I agree.
And the number of times I've seen him lay out a guy with his shoulder can be counted on my fingers.
You obviously don't watch him enough then. 6 times a year I'm guessing, when they're playing the Sens? :rolleyes:
Don't confuse phsyical play for good defensive play. People do it all the time
I'm not confusing the two at all. I know that when Mccabe tries for that big hit he puts himself out of position. But when he's in gaurding the front of the net, he does a good job clearing it. Along the boards when there is a cycle on the offence, Mccabe does a good job defending it. That, my friend, is good defence. But he also does some things badly. The good and the bad cancel eachother out and he is an average defencemen defensively. Physically, he is above average. Offensively, he is WAY above average, among the best in the league recently when he's entered his prime.
Ed Jovanovski would be the best example. Most top NHL defenseman > McCabe defensively. And since the league seems to be split between physical and positional blueliners at the top, most top NHL defenseman = McCabe physically.
I agree with you on the defensive part, but physically he is above average for sure. You went to specifics earlier, to generalizing. Why don't you go and pick apart my earlier post like Brian's, or yours. You know the post you made, Darius Kasparaitis is better then Mccabe. :rolleyes: You know that you're wrong so you can't go back to actual specifics of the top 30 D men, or that Mccabe would be a top defencemen on the majority of the teams in the NHL, so that has backed you into the corner of generalizing like this and you're still cutting Mccabe short.
You also want to say McCabe is so great offensively. But really, he's just above average. Other than last season, which I say with confidence will be his career year, McCabe has been a pretty consistant 20-29 points guy.
He has only entered his prime recently.
How is that special? If anything, McCabe is showing signs of being a flash in the pan, not Souray.
Not going to get into Souray, it would be offtopic, but Mccabe a flash in the pan? I can't believe this. Have you watched this guy over the past three years. Like I said, Mccabe is entering his prime, or is in the thick of it. He has quite a few good years left. When Mccabe was younger, PRE PRIME, he was a 20-29 point guy. Would it be fair to a guy like Bouwmeester if you brought up his PRE PRIME numbers while he would be contending to for the Norris? I don't think so. A flash in the pan has one good year and then disappears. Mccabe quite obviously wasn't doing that.
Guys like Redden who consistantly put up 40+ points, those are the elite offensive defenseman in the league.
True, but at least be fair. Mccabe may have been a late-bloomer, and could put up 40-50 points for the next three seasons. Just because you don't think so doesn't make it a fact. Last season, Bryan Mccabe was a #1 defencemen. Over his career? No, not yet. All I was talking about was last season. But now you realize you were wrong in that also, and have to bring up the past and other seasons. Once again I'll bring up an example. What if Chris Pronger had his first good year(though Mccabe had more then that), would it be fair to say he isn't a #1 defencemen, and that he never will be?
Until McCabe can piece two good seasons together, and he has yet to do so, I don't see how we can be saying he is among the top 5 offensive defenseman in the league
When were we talking about multi-season? I was talking about last year, I thought that was quite clear. Last season, he was a #1 defencemen. Whether he goes down in history as one remains to be seen. I'm not going to make any unfair and biased predictions because it would have no basis. You refuse to believe that though.
And based on your comments he seems to rank in your top 5. Most top NHL defenseman >= McCabe offensively
Not last season. He was 4th in points and 2nd in goals. Thats top 5 last season if you ask me.
Based on your 3 assesments (offense, defense, physical play):
Top NHL defenseman > McCabe. That statement doesn't support my claims of him being a slightly below average #2 (although I stand by those claimes) but it does discount your theory of him being a legit #1 since a #1 defenseman in a top NHL d-man.
There are 30 top NHL defencemen. Make a list that are over Mccabe. Don't bring up Brian's list again because that thing was just rediculous. If you still agree with that list, reply to my post where I replied to that list. Or your pathetic list also.
All I can say now is: prove me wrong, Bryan. Prove me wrong.
Since we were talking about last season before your last post, he has already proved you wrong.
Show me more than just one good year in a row. You've yet to do so and are 10 years into your NHL career.
He's a late bloomer, everyone knows that. But in the end the point is moot, because we were talking about last season. Last season Mccabe was a #1 defencemen, and you disagreed with that.
And one could even argue that thanks to his crappy European outing (1 point in 10 games, -12, chased off the roster for poor defensive performances) that even if he gets 53 points again, it can't be considered in back-to-back campaignes.
That wouldn't be fair. Completely different game with completely different surroundings.
I don't consider the lockout an official season in debates like this since players were not in the NHL, but the case could be made.
But it wouldn't be fair. It would be the same thing as saying Hemsky=Havlat.
Berard is a defensive laibility, alright physically, and pretty good offensively
Defensively- Mccabe>Berard
Physically- Mccabe>Berard
Offensively- Mccabe>Berard.
I'd love to see you try and argue this one.
. He should be your type of #1 d-man. :) Anyway, what makes Berard any different than McCabe other than the hip-checks that put the latter out of position? Oh yeah, unlike his couterpart, Berard has posted six 30+ point seasons and three 40+ point seasons compared to McCabe who has posted two of each, both times in the same season.
I've already responded to this type of thing earlier in my post. Give Mccabe a chance, and once again, we were talking about last season.
And Berard's PPG this past NHL season (47p, 58 GP) >>>>> McCabe's (53p, 75GP). Berard = .81 while McCabe = .70
Finally, you're talking about last season. Berard didn't play the full year, he could have gone through a slump sometime in there or many other things could have happened. Unless Berard played the same(or close to it) amount of games then Mccabe, I could see your point. Lets say that a guy plays 2 games and scores 4 points, he averages 2 points a game. Would that be fair in comparing him to a guy who played 10 games and also was averaging 2 points a game? I don't think so.
A liability? No he certainly is not. This is getting crazy. Aki Berg is a liability, Jyrki Lumme was a liability, Mccabe a liability? You're just grasping at straws here. Last year in the Philly series, he was a liability. He had a bad game. Ever since that ONE game he's a liability. Give me a break.
No, against Philadelphia he played like a school-boy. Against the Sens he was a liability, unable to so much as even contain Marian Hossa. But to be fair, many players can't. Come to think of it, the only time McCabe was a threat, or at least one of a #1 defenseman, all the time I saw him was on the PP. Otherwise he was an alright physical, somewhat lacking defensive player. A liability is "Something that holds one back; a handicap". And that suits Bryan quite well in his own zone. Belfour and his defensive partner, whoever that was on a given night, often had to cover up for his mistakes. Some would say it handicaped them.
This is true, but how many times does he actually attempt it? Not that many. Once or twice a week maximum, and he hits it half of the time. It hasn't cost the team that much anyway because usually when he tries it, the backchecking forward knows it and the forward goes back to cover up.
Once or twice a week? How many games are played in a week, John? Usually two or three, so he's out of position nearly once a game thanks to that stupid hit alone. And I wouldn't give him a 50% success rate either, but you see him throw it more than me.
And you don't think the bolded part just scream liability? Again, as defined by dictionary.com; "Something that holds one back; a handicap".
You obviously don't watch him enough then. 6 times a year I'm guessing, when they're playing the Sens? :rolleyes:
If I didn't have to watch him as much as I do, while still getting my Saturday night hockey fix, I wouldn't. But thanks to CBC I see plenty of the Maple Leafs. And I'd rater root against the Leaf, because they do play some pretty exciting hockey admittedly, than sit around and drink beer while watching nothing.
I'm not confusing the two at all. I know that when Mccabe tries for that big hit he puts himself out of position. But when he's in gaurding the front of the net, he does a good job clearing it. Along the boards when there is a cycle on the offence, Mccabe does a good job defending it. That, my friend, is good defence. But he also does some things badly. The good and the bad cancel eachother out and he is an average defencemen defensively. Physically, he is above average. Offensively, he is WAY above average, among the best in the league recently when he's entered his prime.
Really? McCabe does a good job of clearing the front of the net? You Leafers could've confused me. You guys are always fiending for a crease-clearing defeseman. Lots of you guys were upset when Foote went to Columbus........ but it was Jay Harrison to the rescue! ;) :nod: He's alright along the boards, but all top-pairing defenseman can efectively pin their man to the glass. And I do consider McCabe a top-pairing defenseman, just not a good one, as a slightly below average #2.
I still contend that he is only around average physically. As I said, he rarely lays a guy out with a shoulder check and his butt-check shouldn't even be legal. Most of his "physical" plays are just face-washes/punches to the face after the whistle has blown. But that doesn't help much as the play has already taken place.
It is impossible for any defenseman who is as wildly inconsistant as McCabe to be "way above average" offensively.
I agree with you on the defensive part, but physically he is above average for sure. You went to specifics earlier, to generalizing. Why don't you go and pick apart my earlier post like Brian's, or yours. You know the post you made, Darius Kasparaitis is better then Mccabe. :rolleyes: You know that you're wrong so you can't go back to actual specifics of the top 30 D men, or that Mccabe would be a top defencemen on the majority of the teams in the NHL, so that has backed you into the corner of generalizing like this and you're still cutting Mccabe short.
Kasparatitis is a very good defenseman defensively. He too puts himself out of position to make a big hit, but since McCabe also does so that particular lapse in Karparatitis' game can be cancelled out. I'm sure you agree Kasparatitis beats McCabe physically aswell. Darius is one of the toughest SOB's in the league and is dirty to boot. Some people fear crossing the blueline for a knee-on-knee hit. With McCabe back there the eyes of skilled forwards likely light up, just waiting to side-step his ass-check they can see coming from a mile away. It's qutie clear McCabe > Kasparatitis offensively, but it doesn't draw him to equal footing. The difference isn't huge between the two, but IMO, Kasparatitis > McCabe and I'd love to have the nasty Russian in the Nation's Capital if not for his crazy contract.
Not going to get into Souray, it would be offtopic, but Mccabe a flash in the pan? I can't believe this. Have you watched this guy over the past three years. Like I said, Mccabe is entering his prime, or is in the thick of it. He has quite a few good years left. When Mccabe was younger, PRE PRIME, he was a 20-29 point guy. Would it be fair to a guy like Bouwmeester if you brought up his PRE PRIME numbers while he would be contending to for the Norris? I don't think so. A flash in the pan has one good year and then disappears. Mccabe quite obviously wasn't doing that.
Yeah, I have watched McCabe the past three years. And it's been a roller-coaster ride. I've seen no evidence to show me that trend will change. Although McCabe never dissapeared, he did fall significantly off the radar as a 20-29 point guy. Those pretty normal totals, combined with his other attributes are nothing to write home about.
True, but at least be fair. Mccabe may have been a late-bloomer, and could put up 40-50 points for the next three seasons. Just because you don't think so doesn't make it a fact. Last season, Bryan Mccabe was a #1 defencemen. Over his career? No, not yet. All I was talking about was last season. But now you realize you were wrong in that also, and have to bring up the past and other seasons. Once again I'll bring up an example. What if Chris Pronger had his first good year(though Mccabe had more then that), would it be fair to say he isn't a #1 defencemen, and that he never will be?
People who bloom late don't suddenly bloom at age 30. Obviously, he could put up those type of numbers the next 3 seasons, but I seriously doubt it. Was McCabe a #1 defenseman last season? Sure, offensively (not overall IMO). But just because he was last year doesn't mean you can call him one now. And by saying McCabe IS a #1 defenseman, that is what you are doing. Not only for the offensive aspect of his game, but for his total game.
When were we talking about multi-season? I was talking about last year, I thought that was quite clear. Last season, he was a #1 defencemen. Whether he goes down in history as one remains to be seen. I'm not going to make any unfair and biased predictions because it would have no basis. You refuse to believe that though.
You were quite clear. But not in regards to last year. I said McCabe was a slightly below average #2. To which you replied.
Below average #2? Now come on you've gotta be joking me Andrew. On most teams in the NHL, Mccabe would be a number one defencemen
*list of teams*
Thats 19 teams where Mccabe would be the #1 D man, IMO. Thats more then half. So give credit where credit is due. He's a #1 defencemen. Any guy who finishes 4th in Norris voting isn't a "below average #2 defencemen".
Moving on.......
Not last season. He was 4th in points and 2nd in goals. Thats top 5 last season if you ask me.
There are 30 top NHL defencemen. Make a list that are over Mccabe. Don't bring up Brian's list again because that thing was just rediculous. If you still agree with that list, reply to my post where I replied to that list. Or your pathetic list also.
So what if he was top 5 last year? That doesn't mean he is of top 5 quality now, based on one season. Is Cory Stillman one of the top 10 offensive talents in the NHL? He is based on his number last year......
I will make a list in a post following this one.
Since we were talking about last season before your last post, he has already proved you wrong.
He's a late bloomer, everyone knows that. But in the end the point is moot, because we were talking about last season. Last season Mccabe was a #1 defencemen, and you disagreed with that.
Quite the contrary, I have proven we weren't talking about just last season. Infact, you were the one who started talking about the present saying McCabe IS a #1 d-man.
Defensively- Mccabe>Berard
Physically- Mccabe>Berard
Offensively- Mccabe>Berard.
I'd love to see you try and argue this one.
They both aren't good defensively. I'll give a slight edge to McCabe though. Physical play is equal. Offense goes to Berard. So those categories even out to a tie, but I like Berard a bit more for his better consistancy among other things.
30 Defenseman Better Than McCabe (not in order). Unlike for my 45, where I concede some are pretty debatable, these guys are a definitively superior as far as I'm concerned (though I'm sure you'll disagree):
1. Zdeno Chara
2. Wade Redden
3. Rob Blake
4. Niklas Lidstrom
5. Scott Niedermayer
6. Scott Stevens
7. Adam Foote
8. Ed Jovanovski
9. Mattias Ohlund
10. Jay Bouwmeester
11. Scott Hannan
12. Roman Hamrlik
13. Brian Leetch
14. Sergei Gonchar
15. Adrian Aucoin
16. Kim Jonsson
17. Nick Boynton
18. Sergei Zubov
19. Robyn Regehr
20. Dan Boyle
21. Barret Jackman
22. Janne Niinimaa
23. Jordan Leopold
24. Chris Pronger
25. Alexei Zhitnik
26. Mattias Norstrom
27. Pavel Kubina
28. Eric Brewer
29. Darryl Sydor
30. Brad Stuart
Now I'm risking making a whole new thread here, but on defenseman better than McCabe; specifically the guys in Calgary:
Ference and Lydman played by FAR the hardest minutes in Calgary. Regehr played the most soft, and Leopold wasn't too far ahead of him.
Just thought I'd add in that tidbit, because Leopold/Regehr both got really built up by the media, but it was the two veterans who did all the dirty work and got very little credit. Hannan also spent very little time on the ice against Forsberg in the playoffs, even though he was credited with being the guy to shut him down (right Hrudey?). To be fair though, he spent a lot of time against Sakic.
Just two cents ;].
John, there's just no way you're going to convince anyone that a guy who was schooled during the playoffs is a #1. If you choke in the playoffs, you're not a performer - simple as that. Look no further than Cloutier.
edit: McCabe better than Berard offensively? :laughing:
Berards had over 45 points 3 times in his career, McCabe once. McCabe has averaged .381 PPG, Berard .521. It's not even close!
Berard simply needed 7 points across another 18 games, his career average shows he would've easily hit that John. Take off those rosey glasses!
You were saying? :laughing:
Newfie John
8-08-05, 9:13 PM
No, against Philadelphia he played like a school-boy. Against the Sens he was a liability, unable to so much as even contain Marian Hossa. But to be fair, many players can't. Come to think of it, the only time McCabe was a threat, or at least one of a #1 defenseman, all the time I saw him was on the PP. Otherwise he was an alright physical, somewhat lacking defensive player. A liability is "Something that holds one back; a handicap". And that suits Bryan quite well in his own zone. Belfour and his defensive partner, whoever that was on a given night, often had to cover up for his mistakes. Some would say it handicaped them.
Once or twice a week? How many games are played in a week, John? Usually two or three, so he's out of position nearly once a game thanks to that stupid hit alone. And I wouldn't give him a 50% success rate either, but you see him throw it more than me.
And you don't think the bolded part just scream liability? Again, as defined by dictionary.com; "Something that holds one back; a handicap".
If I didn't have to watch him as much as I do, while still getting my Saturday night hockey fix, I wouldn't. But thanks to CBC I see plenty of the Maple Leafs. And I'd rater root against the Leaf, because they do play some pretty exciting hockey admittedly, than sit around and drink beer while watching nothing.
Really? McCabe does a good job of clearing the front of the net? You Leafers could've confused me. You guys are always fiending for a crease-clearing defeseman. Lots of you guys were upset when Foote went to Columbus........ but it was Jay Harrison to the rescue! ;) :nod: He's alright along the boards, but all top-pairing defenseman can efectively pin their man to the glass. And I do consider McCabe a top-pairing defenseman, just not a good one, as a slightly below average #2.
I still contend that he is only around average physically. As I said, he rarely lays a guy out with a shoulder check and his butt-check shouldn't even be legal. Most of his "physical" plays are just face-washes/punches to the face after the whistle has blown. But that doesn't help much as the play has already taken place.
It is impossible for any defenseman who is as wildly inconsistant as McCabe to be "way above average" offensively.
Kasparatitis is a very good defenseman defensively. He too puts himself out of position to make a big hit, but since McCabe also does so that particular lapse in Karparatitis' game can be cancelled out. I'm sure you agree Kasparatitis beats McCabe physically aswell. Darius is one of the toughest SOB's in the league and is dirty to boot. Some people fear crossing the blueline for a knee-on-knee hit. With McCabe back there the eyes of skilled forwards likely light up, just waiting to side-step his ass-check they can see coming from a mile away. It's qutie clear McCabe > Kasparatitis offensively, but it doesn't draw him to equal footing. The difference isn't huge between the two, but IMO, Kasparatitis > McCabe and I'd love to have the nasty Russian in the Nation's Capital if not for his crazy contract.
Yeah, I have watched McCabe the past three years. And it's been a roller-coaster ride. I've seen no evidence to show me that trend will change. Although McCabe never dissapeared, he did fall significantly off the radar as a 20-29 point guy. Those pretty normal totals, combined with his other attributes are nothing to write home about.
People who bloom late don't suddenly bloom at age 30. Obviously, he could put up those type of numbers the next 3 seasons, but I seriously doubt it. Was McCabe a #1 defenseman last season? Sure, offensively (not overall IMO). But just because he was last year doesn't mean you can call him one now. And by saying McCabe IS a #1 defenseman, that is what you are doing. Not only for the offensive aspect of his game, but for his total game.
You were quite clear. But not in regards to last year. I said McCabe was a slightly below average #2. To which you replied.
Moving on.......
So what if he was top 5 last year? That doesn't mean he is of top 5 quality now, based on one season. Is Cory Stillman one of the top 10 offensive talents in the NHL? He is based on his number last year......
I will make a list in a post following this one.
Quite the contrary, I have proven we weren't talking about just last season. Infact, you were the one who started talking about the present saying McCabe IS a #1 d-man.
They both aren't good defensively. I'll give a slight edge to McCabe though. Physical play is equal. Offense goes to Berard. So those categories even out to a tie, but I like Berard a bit more for his better consistancy among other things.
And around the merry-go-round again. I would reply to this in more detail but I'll end up saying the same thing I did in the last post. This is what it boils down to.
Career wise, Mccabe is not a #1 defencemen. He hasn't shown enough consistancy for that. But last season, he was a definate #1 defencemen. I think he can do that again for years to come, you don't. Only time will tell who wins this arguement.
Newfie John
8-08-05, 9:14 PM
Now I'm risking making a whole new thread here, but on defenseman better than McCabe; specifically the guys in Calgary:
Ference and Lydman played by FAR the hardest minutes in Calgary. Regehr played the most soft, and Leopold wasn't too far ahead of him.
Just thought I'd add in that tidbit, because Leopold/Regehr both got really built up by the media, but it was the two veterans who did all the dirty work and got very little credit. Hannan also spent very little time on the ice against Forsberg in the playoffs, even though he was credited with being the guy to shut him down (right Hrudey?). To be fair though, he spent a lot of time against Sakic.
Just two cents ;].
John, there's just no way you're going to convince anyone that a guy who was schooled during the playoffs is a #1. If you choke in the playoffs, you're not a performer - simple as that. Look no further than Cloutier.
edit: McCabe better than Berard offensively? :laughing:
Berards had over 45 points 3 times in his career, McCabe once. McCabe has averaged .381 PPG, Berard .521. It's not even close!
Berard simply needed 7 points across another 18 games, his career average shows he would've easily hit that John. Take off those rosey glasses!
You were saying? :laughing:
When I said that, I was going by last season. I thought I made that quite clear.
When I said that, I was going by last season. I thought I made that quite clear.
Which, is currently an anomaly.
Is Kipper better than Broduer? Is Stillman more effective than Kariya?
Newfie John
8-08-05, 9:25 PM
Which, is currently an anomaly.
Is Kipper better than Broduer? Is Stillman more effective than Kariya?
Brodeur is better then Kipper, Kipper had what, 20 good games? Let alone Stillman, Lindros is more effective than Kariya.
charlio lemieux
8-09-05, 2:02 PM
Nice top 30 List. Full of one dimensional players who in a Particular catergory beat McCabe statistically. But for an all round Defenseman You can't put 15 players ahead of McCabe. Even though the list was not in order Pronger appears to be almost an after thought. Scott Stevens come on, he was great but he's old and slow and hurt if he made it where's MacInnis. Boynton, please, Boyle, come on, Jonsson, are you serious?
Pts, +/-, PIM, Ice-time find the Defensemen that beat McCabe in all categories, or smoke him in a couple, and are close in the rest, and you will see how many are really better.
Comparing the way McCabe plays to a one-dimensional player like Berard is like comparing Gretzky and Messier. Sure Gretzky was the more talented, but Messier proved to be tougher, faster and qiute possibly a better leader. That doesn't mean Gretzky wasn't the greatest, just not the most well-rounded. McCabe brings a bit of everything to the table, unlike Lidstrom - won't fight, Stevens - won't score and Bouwmeester and Leopold don't deserve to be on any list where consistancy over time is a criteria and Dan Boyle I like him but the truth is they had to get Sydor because Boyle and Kubina weren't good enough. There are serious holes in your list, too much personal input not enough statistics. Go by the Numbers McCabe is a top 20 atleast.
Gretzky wasn't the greatest, just not the most well-rounded. McCabe brings a bit of everything to the table.
I'm thinking of trying to get a writing job for TSN. I hear out-of-context mayhem is a must.
Max Power
8-09-05, 2:20 PM
Nice top 30 List. Full of one dimensional players who in a Particular catergory beat McCabe statistically. But for an all round Defenseman You can't put 15 players ahead of McCabe. Even though the list was not in order Pronger appears to be almost an after thought. Scott Stevens come on, he was great but he's old and slow and hurt if he made it where's MacInnis. Boynton, please, Boyle, come on, Jonsson, are you serious?
Pts, +/-, PIM, Ice-time find the Defensemen that beat McCabe in all categories, or smoke him in a couple, and are close in the rest, and you will see how many are really better.
Comparing the way McCabe plays to a one-dimensional player like Berard is like comparing Gretzky and Messier. Sure Gretzky was the more talented, but Messier proved to be tougher, faster and qiute possibly a better leader. That doesn't mean Gretzky wasn't the greatest, just not the most well-rounded. McCabe brings a bit of everything to the table, unlike Lidstrom - won't fight, Stevens - won't score and Bouwmeester and Leopold don't deserve to be on any list where consistancy over time is a criteria and Dan Boyle I like him but the truth is they had to get Sydor because Boyle and Kubina weren't good enough. There are serious holes in your list, too much personal input not enough statistics. Go by the Numbers McCabe is a top 20 atleast.
I totally agree McCabe does bring a little of everything on the table EXCEPT for DEFENSE =]
IMO Man U brought up many valid points on McCabe but one thing I won?t argue is that @3.5 million McCabe isn?t completely overpaid. If the leafs weren?t paying that some other team would have signed the defensively challenged defensemen for just as much if not more
Brodeur is better then Kipper, Kipper had what, 20 good games? Let alone Stillman, Lindros is more effective than Kariya.
So how come Kipper's anomaly doesn't count, however McCabes does?
Charlo, did you just say that McCabe was better than Lidstrom? :laughing:
+/- depends far more on your team than your personal skill, along with the type of minutes you played. You don't have to look any further than Marek Malik.
Newfie John
8-09-05, 2:53 PM
So how come Kipper's anomaly doesn't count, however McCabes does?
Kipper had success in the last quarter of the season.
Charlo, did you just say that McCabe was better than Lidstrom? :laughing:
No, he did not. He said Mccabe is more physical. Thats the way I took it anyway.
+/- depends far more on your team than your personal skill, along with the type of minutes you played. You don't have to look any further than Marek Malik.
Agree totally.
Nice top 30 List. Full of one dimensional players who in a Particular catergory beat McCabe statistically. But for an all round Defenseman You can't put 15 players ahead of McCabe.
I stopped reading right here. Anyone who knows anything about hockey knows you can't NOT put 15 players over McCabe. And believe me Pronger was not an after thought, he is top 5 in the league. I was just going team by team in my head, mentally surverying defenseman to put on my list. Edmonton didn't come up until the end of my mental scan.
You say I "have to go by the numbers" and thus making McCabe top 20? Because of the numbers is exactly why McCabe doesn't deserve to be in that group - he's only had one great year (and quite frankly I don't think he can do it again) while others have had 4 or 5. But whether McCabe does or doesn't put up similar stats is a moot point in regards to where he ranks right now because one season doesn't push you into the league's elite. Particularly when he's only among that group in terms of offensive statistics. Zidlicky put up 53 points too, nobody is throwing his name out here. I'll go in a rough order now of 15 d-men who are HANDS DOWN better than McCabe:
1. Lidstrom
2. Pronger
3. Neidermayer
4. Blake
5. Chara
6. Foote
7. Ohlund
8. Gonchar
9. Boynton
10. Jovanovski
11. Aucoin
12. Redden
13. Hannan
14. Hamrlik
15. Bouwmeester
charlio lemieux
8-09-05, 4:21 PM
How does Bouwmeester Keep making your list when you keep crying about Longterm success and how "one great year" doesn't make someone great. Same with Boynton he's been in the league what 2, 3 years how'd he get so great. Not to say these guys aren't good, Bouwmeester should earn a Norris at some point, but due to your own argument they should be disqualified.
Foote's ranked a bit high, but otherwise a very good accurate list. :thumb:
Except you missed McCabe. :laughing:
How does Bouwmeester Keep making your list when you keep crying about Longterm success and how "one great year" doesn't make someone great. Same with Boynton he's been in the league what 2, 3 years how'd he get so great. Not to say these guys aren't good, Bouwmeester should earn a Norris at some point, but due to your own argument they should be disqualified.
Foote's ranked a bit high, but otherwise a very good accurate list. :thumb:
Except you missed McCabe. :laughing:
Jason Bouwmeester is one of those rare exceptions I'm willing to make. But other than that, he has already proven he can score 25+ points a season (which isn't too far away from McCabe's totals excluding the huge year he had) and his defensive game is quite a good margin better than McCabe's. Physical play is about equal. But what has me sold on J-Bo's ranking as a defenseman was his play with team Canada. He may have been our best blue-liner against the world's best, even if he didn't put up many numbers. I think he suffers alot from a) playing in Florida and b) not living up to some of the unrealistic draft hype.
Boyton may have only been in the league for a short number of years but I've seen alot of him in the North East vs my Sens. He is more physical than McCabe and alot better defensively as he's as solid as they come. He's also proven to be a 30 point guy already in his career. He's also an amazing puck-handler and skater who's able to make a Leetch-esque run up ice from time to time. He'll benefit immensely from the new rules. I'm very high on Boynton and feel quite confident with him in my top 10 - I'd take him over anyone on Ottawa's roster but Chara as the list demonstrates.
As for the Norris point you made - those are a bit of different cirumstances. Although I don't think McCabe was the 4th best defenseman in the league last year even based on his good play, and thus not deserving of his finish in the voting, he did deserve quite a few votes and definatly should have been in the top 15 (even if I don't consider him top 30 overall). The Norris should go to the best defenseman in that particular year. And if that happens to be a #2 guy playing above his head for a while, congratulations to that #2 defenseman. McCabe fits that criteria.
Kipper was great all season for the Flames Johnny.. 39 GP if IIRC. That'd be like a forward/defenseman playing ~ 60
For a second I thought you were going to disagree on the Malik example.. :laughing:
Newfie John
8-09-05, 9:37 PM
I stopped reading right here. Anyone who knows anything about hockey knows you can't NOT put 15 players over McCabe. And believe me Pronger was not an after thought, he is top 5 in the league. I was just going team by team in my head, mentally surverying defenseman to put on my list. Edmonton didn't come up until the end of my mental scan.
You say I "have to go by the numbers" and thus making McCabe top 20? Because of the numbers is exactly why McCabe doesn't deserve to be in that group - he's only had one great year (and quite frankly I don't think he can do it again) while others have had 4 or 5. But whether McCabe does or doesn't put up similar stats is a moot point in regards to where he ranks right now because one season doesn't push you into the league's elite. Particularly when he's only among that group in terms of offensive statistics. Zidlicky put up 53 points too, nobody is throwing his name out here. I'll go in a rough order now of 15 d-men who are HANDS DOWN better than McCabe:
1. Lidstrom
2. Pronger
3. Neidermayer
4. Blake
5. Chara
6. Foote
7. Ohlund
8. Gonchar
9. Boynton
10. Jovanovski
11. Aucoin
12. Redden
13. Hannan
14. Hamrlik
15. Bouwmeester
Our wires are totally crossed. I thought we were only talking about last season only. If we are going to talk about career wise, then you could easily put 15 d men in front of Mccabe. Last season, without doubt, he was a #1 defencemen. Agree or disagree? Thats all I'm arguing. I'm not saying that Mccabe has had a career of a #1 defencemen, yet.
Newfie John
8-09-05, 9:38 PM
Kipper was great all season for the Flames Johnny.. 39 GP if IIRC. That'd be like a forward/defenseman playing ~ 60
For a second I thought you were going to disagree on the Malik example.. :laughing:
Mccabe has had two good years... so I would assume that Mccabe would put up a better case then Kipper. Even Mccabe has been more consistant then Mccabe. But once again, I'm not talking career wise, I'm only talking about last season.
Our wires are totally crossed. I thought we were only talking about last season only. If we are going to talk about career wise, then you could easily put 15 d men in front of Mccabe. Last season, without doubt, he was a #1 defencemen. Agree or disagree? Thats all I'm arguing. I'm not saying that Mccabe has had a career of a #1 defencemen, yet.
I was always talking about who is a #1 defenseman NOW. Not career-wise, not last season, but right now. And FTR I do not think McCabe has shown us enough consistancy to be considered a #1 guy in this league I thought we were on the same page there when you said:
"Thats 19 teams where Mccabe would be the #1 D man, IMO. Thats more then half. So give credit where credit is due. He's a #1 defencemen."
Anyway....... moving on. Was McCabe a #1 last season offesnively? Definatly. Overall? Not IMO, but not far off from it either. As I said earlier, I consider(ed) Redden a good - on a few particular nights a very good - #2 guy. So by that measuring stick I think we can all agree that McCabe isn't (wasn't) a #1. But maybe I'm just a tough critic. Since all the 90's exapnsion, I don't think there have been enough #1 guys in this league to go around. There may be 30 teams, but I don't think there are 30 guys who do enough to be #1 defensemen. Hell, after my most recent top 15 list I think the pcikings for #1's start to get qutie thin.
If McCabe can put up another 53 point season (and I am very skeptical that he can), I will consider him a #1 (albeit on the lower-side of it). I will definatly for one thing consider him not only better than Wade Redden, but no longer slightly over-paid. If he can dupilicate his success he will have proven to me that he can consistantly put up league leading statisitics (discouting that one year as a blip in the radar). we all know he is an alright phsyical presense, and despite being bad defensively is still good enough overall to be a #1 under such concequences. But right now, all I see is a patter of one good year, one bad year, and his play in Europe and playoff outings don't have me seeing anything to discount that trend.
I guess we'll have to wait and see with Bryan. But I'm not overly optomistic that we can have another #1 defeseman added to the fray. And with T.O. looking not to be contenders in the next few years, that's be a bad thing. We may aswell get another contributor for Team Canada and hockey in general.
Newfie John
8-09-05, 10:11 PM
I was always talking about who is a #1 defenseman NOW. Not career-wise, not last season, but right now. And FTR I do not think McCabe has shown us enough consistancy to be considered a #1 guy in this league I thought we were on the same page there when you said:
"Thats 19 teams where Mccabe would be the #1 D man, IMO. Thats more then half. So give credit where credit is due. He's a #1 defencemen."
Anyway....... moving on. Was McCabe a #1 last season offesnively? Definatly. Overall? Not IMO, but not far off from it either. As I said earlier, I consider(ed) Redden a good - on a few particular nights a very good - #2 guy. So by that measuring stick I think we can all agree that McCabe isn't (wasn't) a #1. But maybe I'm just a tough critic. Since all the 90's exapnsion, I don't think there have been enough #1 guys in this league to go around. There may be 30 teams, but I don't think there are 30 guys who do enough to be #1 defensemen. Hell, after my most recent top 15 list I think the pcikings for #1's start to get qutie thin.
If McCabe can put up another 53 point season (and I am very skeptical that he can), I will consider him a #1 (albeit on the lower-side of it). I will definatly for one thing consider him not only better than Wade Redden, but no longer slightly over-paid. If he can dupilicate his success he will have proven to me that he can consistantly put up league leading statisitics (discouting that one year as a blip in the radar). we all know he is an alright phsyical presense, and despite being bad defensively is still good enough overall to be a #1 under such concequences. But right now, all I see is a patter of one good year, one bad year, and his play in Europe and playoff outings don't have me seeing anything to discount that trend.
I guess we'll have to wait and see with Bryan. But I'm not overly optomistic that we can have another #1 defeseman added to the fray. And with T.O. looking not to be contenders in the next few years, that's be a bad thing. We may aswell get another contributor for Team Canada and hockey in general.
Well I think he could move forward off of his last year which would make him a #1 defencemen. I was confident in that so I just said he's a #1. I meant he was a #1 last year, and assumed he would continue, so I labelled him as a #1 throught THE REST of his career. So far looking at his career, he is not a #1. We are in agreeance though if he has yet another year like that he could be considered a #1. You think he'll be on the lower scale, but thats your natural leaf hatership, I think he'll be a Norris trophy winner(afterall, he was a contender last season). So if lets go in the middle and put where we stand there. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Mccabe has had two good years... so I would assume that Mccabe would put up a better case then Kipper. Even Mccabe has been more consistant then Mccabe. But once again, I'm not talking career wise, I'm only talking about last season.
:conspire:
Well I think he could move forward off of his last year which would make him a #1 defencemen. I was confident in that so I just said he's a #1. I meant he was a #1 last year, and assumed he would continue, so I labelled him as a #1 throught THE REST of his career. So far looking at his career, he is not a #1. We are in agreeance though if he has yet another year like that he could be considered a #1. You think he'll be on the lower scale, but thats your natural leaf hatership, I think he'll be a Norris trophy winner(afterall, he was a contender last season). So if lets go in the middle and put where we stand there. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Fair enough. But the lower-scale comment is hardly Sens-bias, which goes hand in hand with anit-Leaf thoughts. If it were Redden would be more than a good (sometimes very good) in my eyes.
Redden is a consistant 40-48 point guy who is quite a bit better than McCabe in his own end. McCabe is quite a bit more physical than Redden. If he can put up 53 points again (and once more, I'm skeptical) than I will proclaim McCabe as better offensively although the difference wouldn't be huge.
Basically, McCabe - even if he continues to put up his numbers - isnt' all that much better than Redden who is, IMO, a "good" #2. By my standards, wouldn't that logically make McCabe a #1 defenseman in the lesser mold?
Newfie John
8-09-05, 10:35 PM
Fair enough. But the lower-scale comment is hardly Sens-bias, which goes hand in hand with anit-Leaf thoughts. If it were Redden would be more than a good (sometimes very good) in my eyes.
Redden is a consistant 40-48 point guy who is quite a bit better than McCabe in his own end. McCabe is quite a bit more physical than Redden. If he can put up 53 points again (and once more, I'm skeptical) than I will proclaim McCabe as better offensively although the difference wouldn't be huge.
Basically, McCabe - even if he continues to put up his numbers - isnt' all that much better than Redden who is, IMO, a "good" #2. By my standards, wouldn't that logically make McCabe a #1 defenseman in the lesser mold?
See, now this kills me to say this, but I think you're underrating Redden. I think the only reason you think he's a #2 is because you have Chara on your team.
The reason I'm not too high on Redden is because for his great first-pass, it far to often lands right on the oppositions stick. And it was particularly bad last year when Lalime had a five-hole as big as the Rideau Canal. He can never raise his game for us in the playoffs like Phillips can but has no problem doing it for Team Canada. It's is so irratating to see him be the WC's best d-man after continually watching him buckle under the pressure he faces during the playoffs. He has the physical ability to be a very good physical and punishing player but not only rarely throws a hit, but can be made to cough up the puck from his reluctance to take one! At least guys like Hossa/Alfredsson are willing to take punishment if they aren't comfortable giving it out. He, despite being a consistant 40-48 point guy, has always had much more to offer offensively (now I'm getting a bit hard on him). The guy always seemed to be content to sit at his current level. I honestly believe he can get 50-60 points consistantly and be, argueably, the league's best blueliner offensively. He has never had more than 10 goals before this season despite always being out #1 PP QB along with Alfredsson. But wait, he went and scored 17 this season......... but then went out and posted his lowest assist totals since 98-99 and only two more assissts than he had as a rookie! His passes were finding the other team with more frequency (arg!) and of all the years he picked the one with really shaky netminding.
I really like Redden as a person. He's been absolutely great in the community, what with CHEO (Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario) - which we are luckly enough to have right here in Ottawa, once of the Nation's best - and "Wade's World" in particular. He also has some great box-seats at the CC he purchases year 'round and gives to sick kids and their families who couldn't otherwise see top-notch NHL hockey. And don't get me wrong, he can sure play hockey too! The man is easily a top 10-20 defenseman in the league (I got him at around 12, just outside the top 10). He just frustrates me to no end. I think he can be our team's best defenseman right up there on equal fotting with Chara. I think he can be mentioned in the same breath as guys like Lidstrom, although an inferior version. But he just doesn't seem to able to make that next step, let alone raise his game when we need him too.
Andy.. 12th best in the league is a #2?
Newfie John
8-10-05, 3:18 PM
Andy.. 12th best in the league is a #2?
I'm just as confused.. lol. :laughing:
Leafs_Fa_Life
8-10-05, 3:32 PM
I'm just as confused.. lol. :laughing:
There's only a handful of legit true number one defensemen in the league. By that I mean guys who are perennial Norris contenders. I think that's why Andy rates Redden so high but still doesn't consider him a number one dman. I happen to agree.
Newfie John
8-10-05, 3:35 PM
There's only a handful of legit true number one defensemen in the league. By that I mean guys who are perennial Norris contenders. I think that's why Andy rates Redden so high but still doesn't consider him a number one dman. I happen to agree.
That logic makes no sense. There are 30 teams, if you are in the top 30 you are a #1 defencemen. It used to be top 6, now its top 30. Are they all superstars? No, but they're still #1 guys in this league. Those guys you talk about(Lidstrom, Niedermayer) are superstars and ALSO are #1 defencemen.
Leafs_Fa_Life
8-10-05, 3:39 PM
That logic makes no sense. There are 30 teams, if you are in the top 30 you are a #1 defencemen. It used to be top 6, now its top 30. Are they all superstars? No, but they're still #1 guys in this league. Those guys you talk about(Lidstrom, Niedermayer) are superstars and ALSO are #1 defencemen.
Just because a guy is number one on a team, doesn't make him a number one dman. He's just simply a number one in name only because his team doesn't have any great defensemen.
Newfie John
8-10-05, 3:42 PM
Just because a guy is number one on a team, doesn't make him a number one dman.
What? That makes no sense.
He's just simply a number one in name only because his team doesn't have any great defensemen.
Top 30 guys in the league, has nothing to do with team concept. If you go by what teams he'd be a #1 on, then it'd be a team concept.
Bingo, LFL. There may be 30 teams out there, but as far as I'm concerned there aren't enough guys out there who do enough on the ice to be a "#1 defenseman".
Newfie John
8-10-05, 4:50 PM
Bingo, LFL. There may be 30 teams out there, but as far as I'm concerned there aren't enough guys out there who do enough on the ice to be a "#1 defenseman".
Obviously there are, because there are a lot more then 30 defencemen in the league. You're saying there aren't 30 superstars, and I agree. You don't have to be a superstar to be a #1 defencemen, and you don't have to be a superstar to be a #1 Center, like PDO proved when he said Handzus was a #1 center.
Obviously there are, because there are a lot more then 30 defencemen in the league. You're saying there aren't 30 superstars, and I agree. You don't have to be a superstar to be a #1 defencemen, and you don't have to be a superstar to be a #1 Center, like PDO proved when he said Handzus was a #1 center.
Well I guess I just have higher standards then. Because when the NHL started all this expansion I didn't suddenly accept some #2 dmen as #1's simply because there were my rosters to fill out. Obviously though, many people did.
Handzus a #1 center?! :eek: :confused:
Bingo, LFL. There may be 30 teams out there, but as far as I'm concerned there aren't enough guys out there who do enough on the ice to be a "#1 defenseman".
Good point. If I had to list the guys I consider true #1 defensemen in the league it would look something like this (in no particular order):
Blake
Lidstrom
Niedermayer
Pronger
Chara
Those are the only 5 guys that IMO are good enough in all aspects of the game to be considered true #1 defensemen.
Guys on the bubble would include:
Zubov
Bouwmeester (might be a #1 someday)
Leetch
Gonchar
Ohlund
McCabe doesn't even come close to any of the guys on this list, and wouldn't even be in my Top 30 in the NHL. Then again, I've had the pleasure of watching the likes of Niedermayer, Stevens, and Rafalski regularly, so I may be a bit harder on defensemen than others.
vBulletin® v3.6.3, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.